Inlaid Kris and Punang

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 01:01 PM

Well, this is all interesting. I would like to see a kris from the Philippines without its hilt, in order to judge the size of the tang in relation to the blade.

Thinking of an Indonesian kris on “steroids or growth hormones” is not something I care to envision. In Indonesia, and particularly in Bali, the kris is regarded as pusaka, a revered work of the gifted Empu who wrought it, and its powers are not defined by drugs or hormones.

In Indonesia, a kris is a work of art. Many Indonesians would say it is the ultimate work of art, and given the incredibly beautiful sarongs, or sheaths that have been made here, wrought with silver or gold, and adorned with Kalimantan diamonds, rubies and sapphires from India, combined with equally outrageous hilts, it’s fairly evident that the extent of admiration we have here in Indonesia for our kris pusaka transcends thinking of our kris as mere weapons.

For a man in Indonesia, his kris is his soul, and a direct extension of his body. I can assure any reader of this forum that no serious Indonesian collector of kris would even pass a thought of including a kris such as this Philippine kris in their collection. A kris without perfect grace and elegance is merely a dead piece of iron.

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 02:43 PM

To illustrate my point, about Indonesian kris, or in this case, Balinese kris, as being works of art, I offer the two links below....(too large, and too much time to upload).

Both kris are late 18th, or early 19th century, and both are in their original sarongs as offered to me at the time I acquired them. The first kris is in its sarong kampung, or normal sarong. Not uncommonly, fine Balinese kris may have two, or even three various sarongs, (much like the men who own them) suitable for the occasion where kris bearing is essential.

The second kris is of the same age, and seen in its sarong Pura, a more formal presentation, reflecting the caste, or stature of its Balinese owner.

Their sarong aside, it is the blade, the kris itself, that merits discussion. While neither of these blades are masterpieces, each of them exhibit the fine and utterly balanced design that goes into all Indonesian Empu made kris. I think it is self evident, or at least I hope it is, that both kris blades are flawless in their execution and they present a timeless image of perfection, which is only highlighted by their brilliant nickel pamor.

Understandably, I am of course biased in my opinions regarding Balinese made kris, which are in general more substantial than the kris made in Java, Sulawesi, or other parts of Indonesia. Aside from having our Empu and pande, directly descended from the Majapahit, only here in Bali does the restriction of human figures not apply to the arts, (as we are Hindu), thus the variety of our hilts is endless.

http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/kris17.jpg

http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/Kris31.jpg

kai · 24th June 2006, 02:44 PM

Hello Wayan,

Welcome to the forum!

Please be careful since keris/kris threads are somewhat notorious to get a little quarrelsome once in a while...

On this forum we follow the convention of distinguishing between the "kris" (aka keris sundang) from the southern Philippines (but also found across Borneo, Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula) and the "keris" (i.e. the more traditional styles mainly found in Malaya, Sumatra, Jawa and Bali/Lombok (also Borneo, southern Thailand, etc.).

Quote:

I would like to see a kris from the Philippines without its hilt, in order to judge the size of the tang in relation to the blade.

The kris is a really different animal which also affects the usual tang construction - here's a thread with pics: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1243

Quote:

In Indonesia, and particularly in Bali, the kris is regarded as pusaka, a revered work of the gifted Empu who wrought it...

... For a man in Indonesia, his kris is his soul, and a direct extension of his body.

I can assure you that it's exactly the same cultural tradition in the southern Philippines!

Quote:

I can assure any reader of this forum that no serious Indonesian collector of kris would even pass a thought of including a kris such as this Philippine kris in their collection.

Well, keris sundang are not exactly unknown in Indonesia/Malaysia...

I'd also stipulate that aesthetics are bound to differ from one ethnic/cultural group to another so we need to be careful with our own preferences. Among the different keris styles I also see quite large differences (i.e. Malay/Sumatran/Bugis keris vs. Jawa vs. Bali/Lombok, keris panjang and many other keris styles which may appear odd to outsiders!).

Spunjer · 24th June 2006, 03:11 PM

oh boy! this looks like it's gonna be a long thread...

Quote:

I can assure any reader of this forum that no serious Indonesian collector of kris would even pass a thought of including a kris such as this Philippine kris in their collection.

nechesh et al, unless you guys are a serious keris collector, you must give up all your moro krises, lol.

nechesh · 24th June 2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

nechesh et al, unless you guys are a serious keris collector, you must give up all your moro krises, lol.

To paraphrase Charton Heston,"You'll have to pry them out of my cold dead hands!!!"

Rick · 24th June 2006, 03:56 PM

This is posted so many times here that I'm going to save bandwidth and hot link it . Moro Kris :

Oh and Spunjer , no way Man .

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 04:48 PM

In response to Kai:

Why am I being told to “be careful” when discussing the kris of my homeland? And why is this said by someone who lives in Germany? Of course any discussion of kris can be charged. You should hear me argue with my Islamic brothers from Java! They actually think the kris was “invented” within Islam. They also think the same of batik, wayan kulit, topeng, and gamelon, just to mention a few. Silly boys...but when they come to Bali, they are quiet.

Many thanks for the link to see one of these Philippine kris in the buff, so to speak. The tang on them appears to be rectangular, as opposed to circular. But, the tang, in relation to the blade, in width and length makes it impossible for me to envision this blade as an effective slashing weapon. The tang, on the example you linked seems to me to be way too small in relation to a wide, and clumsy blade to defy simple laws of physics. Unless the tang on that blade was forged again into an iron, or bronze hilt, I think simple physics....the stress on the tang, would render it rather useless as a slashing weapon.

On this forum, you can follow whatever convention you desire in the discussion of kris. I have no problem with that. When I post about kris, I will make it very clear if my post is about a Balinese kris, a Javanese kris, a Bugis kris from Sulawesi...whatever.

Regarding aesthetics, they are indeed personal, and I agree they vary greatly from one to another. If a participant on this forum is not allowed to offer their aesthetics, which are obviously open to discussion, and rejection by other forum members, then count me out of here, right now. My personal style is not to walk on egg shells, nor will I bow to
anyone except my priests and my elders. I’m not looking for a fight, but I have not written anything here that deserves a caution.

It’s also odd that you did not comment on either of the average Balinese kris I linked in my last post. I offered those photos only as an aesthetic comparison to the Philippine kris which I find to be clumsy, without grace, and without elegance. But hey! That’s only my opinion!

nechesh · 24th June 2006, 03:38 PM

Hi Wayan,
I would second Kai's cautious words here. It seems you don't really know enough about Moro kris to be passing such judgements. Pehaps you should spent some time with the search function of this forum and check out the level of skill and artistry that can be found in the Moro kris before making any further comments. My own personal tastes run more towards the Indonesian keris myself and i have a very strong affection for Bali blades in particular. But i also have 3 Moro blades in my collection which i quite enjoy and the quality of their workmanship is hardly inferior. Moro blades do tend to be far more functional and were used as actual weapons of war, unlike most Indo keris. But their owners also saw them as having a powerful mystical/magickal side. This is warrior magick. I wouldn't assign a better or worse title to it. I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples cultures. The Moro (and people who collect their weapons) take their kris very seriously. It is a powerful weapon both practically and spiritually, though perhaps not in the same complex and variant modes as the Indo keris. They don't use complex pamor patterns, but there is a beauty to the pure functional form of them. AS to your question about the tang, the Moro kris tang is rectangular, unlike the round Indo ones. The blade is also additionally secured by one or two stirrups called baca-baca. I can assure you there is NOTHING fragile about this construction and the tang is not likely to bend under the fiercest of combat situations.
Very nice keris that you linked to. Neither, however, is "flawless in their execution". The hilt on the second one is exquisite though. Looks like recent work to me.
BTW, you will also find figurative hilts from Java, Madura and Sumatra and the so-called "kingfisher" hilts from the penisula areas.

24th June 2006, 01:01 PM	#1
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	Well, this is all interesting. I would like to see a kris from the Philippines without its hilt, in order to judge the size of the tang in relation to the blade. Thinking of an Indonesian kris on “steroids or growth hormones” is not something I care to envision. In Indonesia, and particularly in Bali, the kris is regarded as pusaka, a revered work of the gifted Empu who wrought it, and its powers are not defined by drugs or hormones. In Indonesia, a kris is a work of art. Many Indonesians would say it is the ultimate work of art, and given the incredibly beautiful sarongs, or sheaths that have been made here, wrought with silver or gold, and adorned with Kalimantan diamonds, rubies and sapphires from India, combined with equally outrageous hilts, it’s fairly evident that the extent of admiration we have here in Indonesia for our kris pusaka transcends thinking of our kris as mere weapons. For a man in Indonesia, his kris is his soul, and a direct extension of his body. I can assure any reader of this forum that no serious Indonesian collector of kris would even pass a thought of including a kris such as this Philippine kris in their collection. A kris without perfect grace and elegance is merely a dead piece of iron. Last edited by Wayan; 24th June 2006 at 02:40 PM.

24th June 2006, 03:56 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Wayan et al This is posted so many times here that I'm going to save bandwidth and hot link it . Moro Kris : Oh and Spunjer , no way Man .

24th June 2006, 02:43 PM	#2
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	To illustrate my point, about Indonesian kris, or in this case, Balinese kris, as being works of art, I offer the two links below....(too large, and too much time to upload). Both kris are late 18th, or early 19th century, and both are in their original sarongs as offered to me at the time I acquired them. The first kris is in its sarong kampung, or normal sarong. Not uncommonly, fine Balinese kris may have two, or even three various sarongs, (much like the men who own them) suitable for the occasion where kris bearing is essential. The second kris is of the same age, and seen in its sarong Pura, a more formal presentation, reflecting the caste, or stature of its Balinese owner. Their sarong aside, it is the blade, the kris itself, that merits discussion. While neither of these blades are masterpieces, each of them exhibit the fine and utterly balanced design that goes into all Indonesian Empu made kris. I think it is self evident, or at least I hope it is, that both kris blades are flawless in their execution and they present a timeless image of perfection, which is only highlighted by their brilliant nickel pamor. Understandably, I am of course biased in my opinions regarding Balinese made kris, which are in general more substantial than the kris made in Java, Sulawesi, or other parts of Indonesia. Aside from having our Empu and pande, directly descended from the Majapahit, only here in Bali does the restriction of human figures not apply to the arts, (as we are Hindu), thus the variety of our hilts is endless. http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/kris17.jpg http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/Kris31.jpg

24th June 2006, 04:48 PM	#7
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	In response to Kai: Why am I being told to “be careful” when discussing the kris of my homeland? And why is this said by someone who lives in Germany? Of course any discussion of kris can be charged. You should hear me argue with my Islamic brothers from Java! They actually think the kris was “invented” within Islam. They also think the same of batik, wayan kulit, topeng, and gamelon, just to mention a few. Silly boys...but when they come to Bali, they are quiet. Many thanks for the link to see one of these Philippine kris in the buff, so to speak. The tang on them appears to be rectangular, as opposed to circular. But, the tang, in relation to the blade, in width and length makes it impossible for me to envision this blade as an effective slashing weapon. The tang, on the example you linked seems to me to be way too small in relation to a wide, and clumsy blade to defy simple laws of physics. Unless the tang on that blade was forged again into an iron, or bronze hilt, I think simple physics....the stress on the tang, would render it rather useless as a slashing weapon. On this forum, you can follow whatever convention you desire in the discussion of kris. I have no problem with that. When I post about kris, I will make it very clear if my post is about a Balinese kris, a Javanese kris, a Bugis kris from Sulawesi...whatever. Regarding aesthetics, they are indeed personal, and I agree they vary greatly from one to another. If a participant on this forum is not allowed to offer their aesthetics, which are obviously open to discussion, and rejection by other forum members, then count me out of here, right now. My personal style is not to walk on egg shells, nor will I bow to anyone except my priests and my elders. I’m not looking for a fight, but I have not written anything here that deserves a caution. It’s also odd that you did not comment on either of the average Balinese kris I linked in my last post. I offered those photos only as an aesthetic comparison to the Philippine kris which I find to be clumsy, without grace, and without elegance. But hey! That’s only my opinion!

24th June 2006, 03:38 PM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Wayan, I would second Kai's cautious words here. It seems you don't really know enough about Moro kris to be passing such judgements. Pehaps you should spent some time with the search function of this forum and check out the level of skill and artistry that can be found in the Moro kris before making any further comments. My own personal tastes run more towards the Indonesian keris myself and i have a very strong affection for Bali blades in particular. But i also have 3 Moro blades in my collection which i quite enjoy and the quality of their workmanship is hardly inferior. Moro blades do tend to be far more functional and were used as actual weapons of war, unlike most Indo keris. But their owners also saw them as having a powerful mystical/magickal side. This is warrior magick. I wouldn't assign a better or worse title to it. I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples cultures. The Moro (and people who collect their weapons) take their kris very seriously. It is a powerful weapon both practically and spiritually, though perhaps not in the same complex and variant modes as the Indo keris. They don't use complex pamor patterns, but there is a beauty to the pure functional form of them. AS to your question about the tang, the Moro kris tang is rectangular, unlike the round Indo ones. The blade is also additionally secured by one or two stirrups called baca-baca. I can assure you there is NOTHING fragile about this construction and the tang is not likely to bend under the fiercest of combat situations. Very nice keris that you linked to. Neither, however, is "flawless in their execution". The hilt on the second one is exquisite though. Looks like recent work to me. BTW, you will also find figurative hilts from Java, Madura and Sumatra and the so-called "kingfisher" hilts from the penisula areas.