A Coronado gun

fernando · 23rd February 2023, 10:03 AM

Let us see if we can convert those PDF's into JPG format.

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Lead Snowstorm · 25th February 2023, 05:24 PM

Excellent, thank you for converting the pages!

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2023, 05:52 PM

Fernando, thank you so much for extracting these pages from the link and posting them for ease in reading this fascinating article. The author notes that the conservation and analysis of this gun hopes to determine if it was forged in Mexico or in Spain.
While these rampart guns could of course be forged in a relatively conservative blacksmith setting, it remains in my opinion too complex of a job to have been done in these early times in Mexico. There was a notable absence of highly skilled armorers in these early expeditions, and those who had some skill in blacksmithing were limited as well as other tradesmen typically found on vessels.

This type of rampart gun was also of the type that became 'deck guns' aboard ships, and most likely this was taken from the vessel the expedition arrived on.
These guns often remained in use for not only generations, but even into centuries as did most artillery pieces. It was not uncommon to find various cannon etc. used in emplacements in settlements, but unusual to find such a heavy gun carried in a mobile expedition.

cannonmn · 26th February 2023, 03:51 PM

There was one comment mentioning forging and blacksmiths. The article’s brief description mentions cast bronze. I’d guess since this discovery, if 100% accurate as described, would rewrite a fair amount of history, and there would be articles in archeological journals, which I’d like to read to get the big picture here. I’d be interested in seeing a lab analysis of the bronze, as this would tell us a lot.

fernando · 26th February 2023, 08:24 PM

Jim, my surprise doesn't go for the carrying along this gun. A healthy man (not an old dude like us both) can easily carry 40 pounds on his shoulder; not to mention they had the mules to do it. Besides, it is plausible that Coronado, leaving men behind to fortify some spots, had them equiped with such useful wall guns, not yet so anachronic due to its earlier generation, as you well suggest.
What intrigues is this mixing between haquebuts (wall guns) typology and versos (from the Portuguese berços) which is completely another thing; berços are breach loaders, for a start.
I ignore whether the article author was advised by metallurgists, as to infer that the lack of lead made the gun to have been cast in the New World. I heard that lead is only a small (if ever) fraction of bronze composition.
Doesn't it look more likely that these guns were shipped from Spain with the Coronado arsenal ?
Appologies for my ignaro approach

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cannonmn · 3rd March 2023, 02:02 PM

Deleted by author

fernando · 3rd March 2023, 04:50 PM

Judging by the relative position of the barrel hook, there sure was an extension in its back, which could well be an aiming aid tiller. However the pierced hole in the said hook suggests the previous presence of a (wooden) stock, although the lack of a further couple pierced lugs on the barrel disputes such probability. I realize that the absency of a lock does not necessaily mean that a stock should have existed; one may shoot an early gun by having a partner (or himself) to ignite the pan by manually approaching the pan with the match cord or the the hot iron.
We know that often weapons undergo one or more modifications during their life. Could it be that a possible stock, for whatever reason, was discarded whilst the gun was still in use.
On the other hand, admiting that this thing had already seen its best days and was currently used a non weapon tool, still occupies one's imagination. To remember that, according to chronicles, two of six of such devices were left behind with some men, for operational purposes. Could this one end up being the criplled unit, for whatever reason.
Just for the fun, see attached a picture extrated from a Spanish military history blog, labeled as primitive XV century Arcabus de Gancho (literaly haquebut) designed to use in walls. And a brighter picture of the Coronado gun, in the hands of its finder (Courtesy Tucson.com)

23rd February 2023, 10:03 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let us see if we can convert those PDF's into JPG format. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 26th February 2023 at 07:51 PM. Reason: Resizing the last picture

26th February 2023, 03:51 PM	#4
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Hackbut There was one comment mentioning forging and blacksmiths. The article’s brief description mentions cast bronze. I’d guess since this discovery, if 100% accurate as described, would rewrite a fair amount of history, and there would be articles in archeological journals, which I’d like to read to get the big picture here. I’d be interested in seeing a lab analysis of the bronze, as this would tell us a lot.

26th February 2023, 08:24 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, my surprise doesn't go for the carrying along this gun. A healthy man (not an old dude like us both) can easily carry 40 pounds on his shoulder; not to mention they had the mules to do it. Besides, it is plausible that Coronado, leaving men behind to fortify some spots, had them equiped with such useful wall guns, not yet so anachronic due to its earlier generation, as you well suggest. What intrigues is this mixing between haquebuts (wall guns) typology and versos (from the Portuguese berços) which is completely another thing; berços are breach loaders, for a start. I ignore whether the article author was advised by metallurgists, as to infer that the lack of lead made the gun to have been cast in the New World. I heard that lead is only a small (if ever) fraction of bronze composition. Doesn't it look more likely that these guns were shipped from Spain with the Coronado arsenal ? Appologies for my ignaro approach . . Last edited by fernando; 27th February 2023 at 01:49 PM. Reason: correction/ s

3rd March 2023, 02:02 PM	#6
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Item not in use as weapon at the time Deleted by author Last edited by cannonmn; 3rd March 2023 at 11:08 PM.

3rd March 2023, 04:50 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	There are guns ... and guns ! Judging by the relative position of the barrel hook, there sure was an extension in its back, which could well be an aiming aid tiller. However the pierced hole in the said hook suggests the previous presence of a (wooden) stock, although the lack of a further couple pierced lugs on the barrel disputes such probability. I realize that the absency of a lock does not necessaily mean that a stock should have existed; one may shoot an early gun by having a partner (or himself) to ignite the pan by manually approaching the pan with the match cord or the the hot iron. We know that often weapons undergo one or more modifications during their life. Could it be that a possible stock, for whatever reason, was discarded whilst the gun was still in use. On the other hand, admiting that this thing had already seen its best days and was currently used a non weapon tool, still occupies one's imagination. To remember that, according to chronicles, two of six of such devices were left behind with some men, for operational purposes. Could this one end up being the criplled unit, for whatever reason. Just for the fun, see attached a picture extrated from a Spanish military history blog, labeled as primitive XV century Arcabus de Gancho (literaly haquebut) designed to use in walls. And a brighter picture of the Coronado gun, in the hands of its finder (Courtesy Tucson.com) Attached Images

25th February 2023, 05:24 PM	#2
Lead Snowstorm Member Join Date: Jul 2022 Posts: 16	Excellent, thank you for converting the pages!

25th February 2023, 05:52 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Fernando, thank you so much for extracting these pages from the link and posting them for ease in reading this fascinating article. The author notes that the conservation and analysis of this gun hopes to determine if it was forged in Mexico or in Spain. While these rampart guns could of course be forged in a relatively conservative blacksmith setting, it remains in my opinion too complex of a job to have been done in these early times in Mexico. There was a notable absence of highly skilled armorers in these early expeditions, and those who had some skill in blacksmithing were limited as well as other tradesmen typically found on vessels. This type of rampart gun was also of the type that became 'deck guns' aboard ships, and most likely this was taken from the vessel the expedition arrived on. These guns often remained in use for not only generations, but even into centuries as did most artillery pieces. It was not uncommon to find various cannon etc. used in emplacements in settlements, but unusual to find such a heavy gun carried in a mobile expedition.