New Acquisition, Mandau, said to be 1800's

kai · 21st February 2023, 06:32 PM

Hello Joe,

I can't read the metal due to the rust and partial cleaning - I agree that at least a gentle, even cleaning with fine steel wool and lots of elbow grease will be preferable.

As mentioned, this certainly isn't a VOC blade: Those were European blades, never local styles. (And you can't get a broad cleaver out of a slender sword/sabre.) Anyway, this font will never fly as VOC. Moreover, lots of Indo blades received false VOC marks - much like many European marks got copied by the competition!

I also doubt this blade is as old as claimed: Especially the base of the blade is not typical and also the tip seems a bit odd, even for a possibly worn blade. While some later blades have European letters on them, this certainly is not a traditional feature. Some earlier blades also got crafted from imported steel and blanks that didn't got fully reforged by the bladesmiths may show remnants of European lettering; in this case the lettering is crisp and seems to be aligned well with the back of the blade which is pointing towards very limited changes in shape.

The English (Wilkinson?) did supply blades in local styles. Not sure about mandau though - this might be worth following up on!

The scabbard isn't terribly old either (the rattan bands seem to show some age though).

All in all and based on the currently available pics, I'd guess this might well originate from the 2nd half of 20th c.

Regards,
Kai

JoeCanada42 · 21st February 2023, 07:41 PM

Werecrow, that may be a very good piece of evidence I hope you will keep us updated, maybe it would be ok to share just the markings and not the blade ...

and yes it is concave convex, I believe I mentioned that, and tried desperately to photo it, these photos should help.

it is less then what appears usually on pieces seen

and for the curve in the spine? not Shure what to call that, like when you quench a straight katana its gets the backwards curve... is that present on older ones?

I realize chances of VOC is rare and unlikely, but its still got some mystery ...
i was thinking Galle ceylon was still in operation at the time, and perhaps when they went out of buisness the new owners marked the old stock ..

JoeCanada42 · 21st February 2023, 09:03 PM

bit more detailed

werecow · 21st February 2023, 09:51 PM

I don't know if it'll help much but I've cropped the picture to just the stamped letters on the mandau and some file marks that may or may not tell the experts something about the origins. In any case, the font was what the one under discussion reminded me of (although it seems to be narrower on yours).

I hope I can say that it is a very typical blade profile with otherwise no embellishments that I could see (i.e. no curly cutout decorations, engravings or brass or silver inlays, but with a nicely carved antler grip and some decorative panels on the scabbard).

If the picture is not allowed I shall willingly place my head upon the digital chopping block.

werecow · 21st February 2023, 10:11 PM

Also it may be nothing but the unusual little "ricasso" area at the base of the blade reminds me somewhat of those on klewang blades and some Tjikeroeh swords.

kai · 21st February 2023, 10:32 PM

Yes, this stepped ricasso was one of the features I was referring to.

BTW, any chance that the tang got welded to the blade, Joe?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 21st February 2023, 10:39 PM

Hello Joe,

Quote:

yes it is concave convex, I believe I mentioned that, and tried desperately to photo it, these photos should help.

I'm not sure these pics really help...

You realise that we're speaking of the cross-section of the blade? (There shouldn't be any bend along the long blade axis.)

BTW, the final curvature of the blade (back) depends obviously not only on the quenching but also on the initial configuration. A good blade smith takes this into account to obtain the intended final shape. Many mandau have a pretty straight edge while there are also quite a few with fairly curved blades.

Regards,
Kai

JoeCanada42 · 22nd February 2023, 12:52 AM

Yes the cross section is convex on one side and concave on the other.
I tried to photo this earlier, and recently aswell, when in your hand you can definitely notice it, I tried taking photos looking at the blade from the point but it doesn't show much, I will work some more on a good photo later. in person looking from the point you can defenitly see these angles

and yes the angle of the blade has a slight curve sideways, upwards if your right handed, I show this in the recent photos I posted. i have a moroco nimcha and talwar also with small slight curve sideways like this near the point.
i beleive this was also to help with cutting, to avoid the shoulder when say taking a head,

schola gladiatora has a youtube video where he mentions this, and many other mandau sword I seen on youtube had that angle as well as the concave convex cross section. that sideways bend is the one i referred too having seen more pronounced on other mandaus.

JoeCanada42 · 22nd February 2023, 01:05 AM

the tjikeroeh swords do seem to be interesting and very similar...

I still need to research English Wilkinson blades sold in the area.

the tang does not seem to be welded, it is very corroded black but seems flush and solid except for that little bit of extra metal( and i was pretty shure it was metal), I did give it a second look when I noticed that before you mentioned it, and as far as I can tell it looks like one solid piece, not shure why that would be left there, thinking about it now ,..maybe someone tried to solder a replacement guard? I will also try to get better photos of that part.

and werecrow thank you very much for sharing that photo, maybe it will help solve the mystery. I'm guna look into the markings myself, hopefully though someone else has seen similar ,

Kai, how about the style of the Gagang ?

JoeCanada42 · 22nd February 2023, 01:20 AM

here it is again highlighting a previous photo

David · 22nd February 2023, 04:24 AM

Joe, no matter how many times i look at the photos you posted i am afraid i am just not seeing a concave/convex cross-section on you blade. It should look something like this.

JoeCanada42 · 22nd February 2023, 04:24 AM

I want to share a though I had before I forget it...

ever play hockey as a kid,
with those cheap plastic hockey sticks,
and you almost instinctually bend blade,
so you can have a good slap shot

JoeCanada42 · 22nd February 2023, 04:42 AM

the cross section as i see it
in actuality the cross section doesn't come to the sharp point till past the dotted line
the concaveness starts really to show also at the end of the dotted line at as it becomes sharp

* here edited to have more proper picture

21st February 2023, 07:41 PM	#2
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Werecrow, that may be a very good piece of evidence I hope you will keep us updated, maybe it would be ok to share just the markings and not the blade ... and yes it is concave convex, I believe I mentioned that, and tried desperately to photo it, these photos should help. it is less then what appears usually on pieces seen and for the curve in the spine? not Shure what to call that, like when you quench a straight katana its gets the backwards curve... is that present on older ones? I realize chances of VOC is rare and unlikely, but its still got some mystery ... i was thinking Galle ceylon was still in operation at the time, and perhaps when they went out of buisness the new owners marked the old stock .. Attached Images

21st February 2023, 09:03 PM	#3
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	bit more detailed Attached Images

21st February 2023, 09:51 PM	#4
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 553	I don't know if it'll help much but I've cropped the picture to just the stamped letters on the mandau and some file marks that may or may not tell the experts something about the origins. In any case, the font was what the one under discussion reminded me of (although it seems to be narrower on yours). I hope I can say that it is a very typical blade profile with otherwise no embellishments that I could see (i.e. no curly cutout decorations, engravings or brass or silver inlays, but with a nicely carved antler grip and some decorative panels on the scabbard). If the picture is not allowed I shall willingly place my head upon the digital chopping block. Attached Images

22nd February 2023, 01:20 AM	#10
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	here it is again highlighting a previous photo Attached Images

22nd February 2023, 04:24 AM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	Joe, no matter how many times i look at the photos you posted i am afraid i am just not seeing a concave/convex cross-section on you blade. It should look something like this. Attached Images

21st February 2023, 06:32 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Joe, I can't read the metal due to the rust and partial cleaning - I agree that at least a gentle, even cleaning with fine steel wool and lots of elbow grease will be preferable. As mentioned, this certainly isn't a VOC blade: Those were European blades, never local styles. (And you can't get a broad cleaver out of a slender sword/sabre.) Anyway, this font will never fly as VOC. Moreover, lots of Indo blades received false VOC marks - much like many European marks got copied by the competition! I also doubt this blade is as old as claimed: Especially the base of the blade is not typical and also the tip seems a bit odd, even for a possibly worn blade. While some later blades have European letters on them, this certainly is not a traditional feature. Some earlier blades also got crafted from imported steel and blanks that didn't got fully reforged by the bladesmiths may show remnants of European lettering; in this case the lettering is crisp and seems to be aligned well with the back of the blade which is pointing towards very limited changes in shape. The English (Wilkinson?) did supply blades in local styles. Not sure about mandau though - this might be worth following up on! The scabbard isn't terribly old either (the rattan bands seem to show some age though). All in all and based on the currently available pics, I'd guess this might well originate from the 2nd half of 20th c. Regards, Kai

21st February 2023, 10:11 PM	#5
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 553	Also it may be nothing but the unusual little "ricasso" area at the base of the blade reminds me somewhat of those on klewang blades and some Tjikeroeh swords.

21st February 2023, 10:32 PM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Yes, this stepped ricasso was one of the features I was referring to. BTW, any chance that the tang got welded to the blade, Joe? Regards, Kai

22nd February 2023, 12:52 AM	#8
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Yes the cross section is convex on one side and concave on the other. I tried to photo this earlier, and recently aswell, when in your hand you can definitely notice it, I tried taking photos looking at the blade from the point but it doesn't show much, I will work some more on a good photo later. in person looking from the point you can defenitly see these angles and yes the angle of the blade has a slight curve sideways, upwards if your right handed, I show this in the recent photos I posted. i have a moroco nimcha and talwar also with small slight curve sideways like this near the point. i beleive this was also to help with cutting, to avoid the shoulder when say taking a head, schola gladiatora has a youtube video where he mentions this, and many other mandau sword I seen on youtube had that angle as well as the concave convex cross section. that sideways bend is the one i referred too having seen more pronounced on other mandaus.

22nd February 2023, 01:05 AM	#9
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	the tjikeroeh swords do seem to be interesting and very similar... I still need to research English Wilkinson blades sold in the area. the tang does not seem to be welded, it is very corroded black but seems flush and solid except for that little bit of extra metal( and i was pretty shure it was metal), I did give it a second look when I noticed that before you mentioned it, and as far as I can tell it looks like one solid piece, not shure why that would be left there, thinking about it now ,..maybe someone tried to solder a replacement guard? I will also try to get better photos of that part. and werecrow thank you very much for sharing that photo, maybe it will help solve the mystery. I'm guna look into the markings myself, hopefully though someone else has seen similar , Kai, how about the style of the Gagang ?

22nd February 2023, 04:42 AM	#13
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	the cross section as i see it in actuality the cross section doesn't come to the sharp point till past the dotted line the concaveness starts really to show also at the end of the dotted line at as it becomes sharp * here edited to have more proper picture Attached Images Last edited by JoeCanada42; 22nd February 2023 at 08:04 AM.