Rapier ID

Reventlov · 18th February 2023, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These letter groupings are acrostics, well known to have been used in these Brescian regions of Italy on their blades in 16th-17th c. They are often first letters of phrases, mottos, or invocations however in these repeated letter forms may have other arcane significance.
As noted, CAINO was one of the key proponents of this fashion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Sir James Mann (Wallace Coll. 1962, various entries) describes numerous rapiers, all with CAINO blades, various marks and typically dated c.1610 (one as early as 1580) on Flemish, German hilts, one on a Spanish cuphilt c. 1625.
The letter combinations are the same sequencing, using various letters, often reversed on the opposing blade face.
i.e. RSNRSNRSND , one side SRNSRNSRND other. The same three letters repeated three times then with a separate terminating letter.

Thanks Jim for reminding me of these! Do you know if anyone has attempted to decipher any of these acrostics? The RSN/SRN sequence has commonalities with much older medieval inscriptions, can't help but wonder if this is more than coincidence...

fernando · 18th February 2023, 02:43 PM

Jim, you remember this thread on the Caino subject. I wonder whether you made some progress on the riddle over Master Caino being Peter in his first name and his blades being always crowned with a S or a MS, and never with a P. Anything relative to the region where he used to worked ? Not likely, though.

.

cornelistromp · 18th February 2023, 04:03 PM

the rapier is english and with a screwed nuckleguard on the pommel circa 1630-1640.
The inscription in the fuller MOMOM can be found on the following rapiers, among others.
one landsknecht rapier in my collection from the second half of the 16th century in combination with a crowned B , probably Peter Tesche Solingen.
A598 in the wallace collection , also with a crowned B on the ricasso.
The Keasbey sale 1924, lot 231 ( also has a silver incrusted hilt)
The Keasbey sale 1925 lot 104. this is multi bar rapier ( skeleton - or spangen rapier)

but..... lot Keasbey 1925 lot 105 , looks a lot like the above rapier and is described as one of the most important pieces from this collection.

best
Jasper

SwordLover79 · 18th February 2023, 08:57 PM

Jasper: your insights are remarkable! Thanks you very much.

cornelistromp · 19th February 2023, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordLover79

Jasper: your insights are remarkable! Thanks you very much.

welcome.

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2023, 06:03 AM

[QUOTE=fernando;279150]Jim, you remember this thread on the Caino subject. I wonder whether you made some progress on the riddle over Master Caino being Peter in his first name and his blades being always crowned with a S or a MS, and never with a P. Anything relative to the region where he used to worked ? Not likely, though.

Thanks Fernando, good thread! but havent been back down that road in a while. Definitely one I'd like to look into deeper, so many roads.....never enough time

.

It does seem it was a matter of both, not just one or the other.

fernando · 19th February 2023, 11:12 AM

One thing remains to be known; whose is this mark ?

.

18th February 2023, 02:43 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Puzzling inscriptions, puzzling signature Jim, you remember this thread on the Caino subject. I wonder whether you made some progress on the riddle over Master Caino being Peter in his first name and his blades being always crowned with a S or a MS, and never with a P. Anything relative to the region where he used to worked ? Not likely, though. .

18th February 2023, 04:03 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	the rapier is english and with a screwed nuckleguard on the pommel circa 1630-1640. The inscription in the fuller MOMOM can be found on the following rapiers, among others. one landsknecht rapier in my collection from the second half of the 16th century in combination with a crowned B , probably Peter Tesche Solingen. A598 in the wallace collection , also with a crowned B on the ricasso. The Keasbey sale 1924, lot 231 ( also has a silver incrusted hilt) The Keasbey sale 1925 lot 104. this is multi bar rapier ( skeleton - or spangen rapier) but..... lot Keasbey 1925 lot 105 , looks a lot like the above rapier and is described as one of the most important pieces from this collection. best Jasper Attached Images

18th February 2023, 08:57 PM	#4
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Rapier ID Jasper: your insights are remarkable! Thanks you very much.

19th February 2023, 11:12 AM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	One thing remains to be known; whose is this mark ? . Attached Images

19th February 2023, 06:03 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	[QUOTE=fernando;279150]Jim, you remember this thread on the Caino subject. I wonder whether you made some progress on the riddle over Master Caino being Peter in his first name and his blades being always crowned with a S or a MS, and never with a P. Anything relative to the region where he used to worked ? Not likely, though. Thanks Fernando, good thread! but havent been back down that road in a while. Definitely one I'd like to look into deeper, so many roads.....never enough time . It does seem it was a matter of both, not just one or the other.