North African dagger for identification

Sajen · 11th February 2023, 01:49 PM

Hello Fennec,

Welcome to the forum! And great to receive a comment from a connoisseur of Algerian knives.
I really like these daggers, if the small ones or even the bigger ones.
I have some further questions for you.
1. You mention the hole in the handle, in the meanwhile I have acquired a forth example which I believe fits also in this category which doesn't have this hole. Would you agree that this dagger is also Algerian? (third and next pictures)
2. Do you think that the two daggers in the second picture are also Algerian?

Thank you very much!

Regards,
Detlef

fennec · 14th February 2023, 11:48 PM

Hi Detlef, and thanks for your consideration, and the interest you show to Algerian crafts.

Yep, I think, with all consideration for my modest knowledge, that these are all algerian crafts, and not only algerian, but from Bou-saada, or may be inspired by the art of this region.

- For the first one, without hole (the last pictures), it belong to those big Bou-saadi (some calls the big ones "khodmi" and small ones "mouss", but in fact the two words means "knife"). I have recently seen one like this, without any hole, and it was a Bou-saadi (I will send you pictures privately because it's actually on sell). Even if there is no hole, you can notice that the two pins are, like others, before the middle of the handle (not a full tang on those knives).
- Is there any bevel on the second half part of the sword? On the back? Because this is another "signature" of some bou-saadi knives.
- Another significativ detail, is the scabbard. Bou-saadi Khodmi have traditionnaly those wooden scabbard, covered with leather, that is usually marked with some geometric design (cant see them). That thicker part, is another stripe of leather that is tired under the other, to keep it in place and make a loop for attachement.
(you can rarely find some scabbard covered with soft metal like brass, and engraved like for some rare flissa, in the ottoman style).
- Then, we can notice that line above the edge, that is probably due to the forging process describe before.

- For the two others, my opinion is the same. Also Bou-saadi khodmi. That visible hole is significativ. The two pins are before it, that prooves that the tang stop before the hole (if it is a third pin, after the hole, i have seen that before, like in one of my pictures, it is probably to keep the handle more "solid", if it is made from two different parts).
The swords are also typically algerian. You can notice that line of forging, and the two others fuller are also common on the big models, obviously to make it less heavy.

PS.. you really have amazing models there... not usual, and probably old. The most we can find in europe, were taken by military frenchmen during the colonisation of algeria. But the most are not in a good condition, due to the use (war... stabbing.. etc...). Those two ones were probably belong to a chief (caid) or someone like that. I'll make a trip to bou-saada soon I hope, I'll take more information, and probably take you a recent craft

Peace, Khaled.

Sajen · 15th February 2023, 01:08 PM

Hi Khaled,

Thank you very much for your warm words and your further comments, highly appreciated! I really like my four examples, I think that three ones are antique and the one which started this thread is old to vintage.

And yes, the fourth example has a beveled edge for the full length on the front side and a small groove near the edge on the back side. (first two pics) The blade is very massive and shows some cross markings on the spine. (next two pics)
And you are also correct that they all have not a full tang. (next pics)

I await your pm for the link of the dagger which is for sale.

Kind regards,
Detlef

fennec · 19th February 2023, 03:08 PM

Hi mate, and sorry for the Time to answer, Im a bit busy these days.

Thanks for those details, there now absolutely no doubt about the algerian origin of those knives. You Can also see the same kind of mounting on one of my bou-saadi.

You are right about the age of those knives. In facto, bousaada is known as a Sword making area for centuries.

Amically, Khaled.

Sajen · 19th February 2023, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fennec

Hi mate, and sorry for the Time to answer, Im a bit busy these days.

Thanks for those details, there now absolutely no doubt about the algerian origin of those knives. You Can also see the same kind of mounting on one of my bou-saadi.

You are right about the age of those knives. In facto, bousaada is known as a Sword making area for centuries.

Amically, Khaled.

Hi Khaled,

No problem, I know this problem very well!

And thank you again for confirming my guess that they are all Algerian in origin as well for the age guess confirming and the links you send me by pm.
Have a nice evening,
Detlef

Sajen · Yesterday, 12:48 PM

updated collection

Pertinax · Yesterday, 04:51 PM

Here is my copy

11th February 2023, 01:49 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Hello Fennec, Welcome to the forum! And great to receive a comment from a connoisseur of Algerian knives. I really like these daggers, if the small ones or even the bigger ones. I have some further questions for you. 1. You mention the hole in the handle, in the meanwhile I have acquired a forth example which I believe fits also in this category which doesn't have this hole. Would you agree that this dagger is also Algerian? (third and next pictures) 2. Do you think that the two daggers in the second picture are also Algerian? Thank you very much! Regards, Detlef Attached Images

15th February 2023, 01:08 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Hi Khaled, Thank you very much for your warm words and your further comments, highly appreciated! I really like my four examples, I think that three ones are antique and the one which started this thread is old to vintage. And yes, the fourth example has a beveled edge for the full length on the front side and a small groove near the edge on the back side. (first two pics) The blade is very massive and shows some cross markings on the spine. (next two pics) And you are also correct that they all have not a full tang. (next pics) I await your pm for the link of the dagger which is for sale. Kind regards, Detlef Attached Images

19th February 2023, 03:08 PM	#4
fennec Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 7	Hi mate, and sorry for the Time to answer, Im a bit busy these days. Thanks for those details, there now absolutely no doubt about the algerian origin of those knives. You Can also see the same kind of mounting on one of my bou-saadi. You are right about the age of those knives. In facto, bousaada is known as a Sword making area for centuries. Amically, Khaled. Attached Images

Yesterday, 12:48 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	updated collection Attached Images

Yesterday, 04:51 PM	#7
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 242	Here is my copy Attached Images

14th February 2023, 11:48 PM	#2
fennec Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 7	Hi Detlef, and thanks for your consideration, and the interest you show to Algerian crafts. Yep, I think, with all consideration for my modest knowledge, that these are all algerian crafts, and not only algerian, but from Bou-saada, or may be inspired by the art of this region. - For the first one, without hole (the last pictures), it belong to those big Bou-saadi (some calls the big ones "khodmi" and small ones "mouss", but in fact the two words means "knife"). I have recently seen one like this, without any hole, and it was a Bou-saadi (I will send you pictures privately because it's actually on sell). Even if there is no hole, you can notice that the two pins are, like others, before the middle of the handle (not a full tang on those knives). - Is there any bevel on the second half part of the sword? On the back? Because this is another "signature" of some bou-saadi knives. - Another significativ detail, is the scabbard. Bou-saadi Khodmi have traditionnaly those wooden scabbard, covered with leather, that is usually marked with some geometric design (cant see them). That thicker part, is another stripe of leather that is tired under the other, to keep it in place and make a loop for attachement. (you can rarely find some scabbard covered with soft metal like brass, and engraved like for some rare flissa, in the ottoman style). - Then, we can notice that line above the edge, that is probably due to the forging process describe before. - For the two others, my opinion is the same. Also Bou-saadi khodmi. That visible hole is significativ. The two pins are before it, that prooves that the tang stop before the hole (if it is a third pin, after the hole, i have seen that before, like in one of my pictures, it is probably to keep the handle more "solid", if it is made from two different parts). The swords are also typically algerian. You can notice that line of forging, and the two others fuller are also common on the big models, obviously to make it less heavy. PS.. you really have amazing models there... not usual, and probably old. The most we can find in europe, were taken by military frenchmen during the colonisation of algeria. But the most are not in a good condition, due to the use (war... stabbing.. etc...). Those two ones were probably belong to a chief (caid) or someone like that. I'll make a trip to bou-saada soon I hope, I'll take more information, and probably take you a recent craft Peace, Khaled.