Identification of an indonesian dagger

Tim Simmons · 22nd June 2006, 08:05 PM

I know there is a great deal of Indian influence in Indonesia so the metalwork on this bangle might also be typical in Indonesia. An area of artifacts I have not spent time observing. Even so the similarity is quite striking.

VVV · 23rd June 2006, 03:26 AM

It looks like a rehilted bayonet blade?
I have seen a rehilted bayonet in Madurese dress before, like a Keris.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 23rd June 2006, 05:54 AM

In Central Jawa this blade form is known as a "sangkuh"; in East Jawa it is known as "buntut mimi".

The silver work in the pommel cap is similar to some work currently being done in Kota Gede.

Battara · 23rd June 2006, 05:29 PM

Some of this type of silver work is also still being done in the southern Philippines. I agree with the bayonet observation.

Henk · 23rd June 2006, 08:42 PM

Tim,

Thanks for your pictures of the indian jewelry. It has similarities indeed. I think you can find this in the whole area. India, Philipines and Indonesia.

Michael and Battara,

It was my first thought too when I saw the blade. A rehilted bayonet. But bayonets are as far as I know of plain steel and smooth. This blade is hand forged.

AG Maisey,

Thanks for naming this dagger. I looked in my books and found in Stone on page 538: SANGU A Central Indian spear made entirely of steel. It has a long triangular or quadrangular head.

You speak of "sangkuh" in Central Java and "buntut mimi" in East Java. Did those spearheads came from India to Java or where these spearheads made by empu's after their Indian brother's and mounted as a tombak?

Looks like Tim was right then with his Indian shot.

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2006, 01:48 AM

In Jawa I have never seen them mounted as spearheads. They are usually mounted in dress that is reminiscent of a command baton. I have seen one in very old dress that was mounted as a keris.I do not believe they have ever been mounted as a tombak in Jawa.

I do not think there is any Indian connection with the Javanese pieces. They have always reminded me of an old European bayonet pattern, and this may have been their origin, but I have not seen or owned any that were of European manufacture. All I have handled have been of Indonesian manufacture.

Would it be possible for you to provide clear close-ups of the metal scabbard cover. Do you know if this is silver, silver plate, or an alloy, such as mamas?

nechesh · 24th June 2006, 05:38 AM

Hey Alan, do you have any idea as to the purpose of these blades. Was it meant as a functional weapon or was it more ceremonial ritualistic. I suppose that on the practical side that triangular blade would leave a pretty nasty hole.

But is also reminds me of a phurpa which is strictly a ritual weapon.

Henk · 24th June 2006, 08:41 AM

Alan,

Thanks for your clear explanation. The blade has that triangular European bayonet pattern. As I wrote before it was my first thought. It is very likely that this is the origin indeed.

I made some pictures of the scabbard. I hope it will do.
I don't think it is pure silver used for the scabbard. It has a copper smell, so i supose it is silver plated or an alloy.

The question of Nechesh is a nice one too. Being dressed as a command baton it would be purely ceremonial, but if i look at the blade it isn't so ceremonial at all and will leave a nasty problem for the guy who's standing at the wrong side of it.

22nd June 2006, 08:05 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	I know there is a great deal of Indian influence in Indonesia so the metalwork on this bangle might also be typical in Indonesia. An area of artifacts I have not spent time observing. Even so the similarity is quite striking. Attached Images

24th June 2006, 08:41 AM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, Thanks for your clear explanation. The blade has that triangular European bayonet pattern. As I wrote before it was my first thought. It is very likely that this is the origin indeed. I made some pictures of the scabbard. I hope it will do. I don't think it is pure silver used for the scabbard. It has a copper smell, so i supose it is silver plated or an alloy. The question of Nechesh is a nice one too. Being dressed as a command baton it would be purely ceremonial, but if i look at the blade it isn't so ceremonial at all and will leave a nasty problem for the guy who's standing at the wrong side of it. Attached Images

23rd June 2006, 03:26 AM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	It looks like a rehilted bayonet blade? I have seen a rehilted bayonet in Madurese dress before, like a Keris. Michael

23rd June 2006, 05:54 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In Central Jawa this blade form is known as a "sangkuh"; in East Jawa it is known as "buntut mimi". The silver work in the pommel cap is similar to some work currently being done in Kota Gede.

23rd June 2006, 05:29 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Some of this type of silver work is also still being done in the southern Philippines. I agree with the bayonet observation.

23rd June 2006, 08:42 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Tim, Thanks for your pictures of the indian jewelry. It has similarities indeed. I think you can find this in the whole area. India, Philipines and Indonesia. Michael and Battara, It was my first thought too when I saw the blade. A rehilted bayonet. But bayonets are as far as I know of plain steel and smooth. This blade is hand forged. AG Maisey, Thanks for naming this dagger. I looked in my books and found in Stone on page 538: SANGU A Central Indian spear made entirely of steel. It has a long triangular or quadrangular head. You speak of "sangkuh" in Central Java and "buntut mimi" in East Java. Did those spearheads came from India to Java or where these spearheads made by empu's after their Indian brother's and mounted as a tombak? Looks like Tim was right then with his Indian shot.

24th June 2006, 01:48 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In Jawa I have never seen them mounted as spearheads. They are usually mounted in dress that is reminiscent of a command baton. I have seen one in very old dress that was mounted as a keris.I do not believe they have ever been mounted as a tombak in Jawa. I do not think there is any Indian connection with the Javanese pieces. They have always reminded me of an old European bayonet pattern, and this may have been their origin, but I have not seen or owned any that were of European manufacture. All I have handled have been of Indonesian manufacture. Would it be possible for you to provide clear close-ups of the metal scabbard cover. Do you know if this is silver, silver plate, or an alloy, such as mamas?

24th June 2006, 05:38 AM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hey Alan, do you have any idea as to the purpose of these blades. Was it meant as a functional weapon or was it more ceremonial ritualistic. I suppose that on the practical side that triangular blade would leave a pretty nasty hole. But is also reminds me of a phurpa which is strictly a ritual weapon.