New acquisition, Croc Kaskara Short sword with Thuluth

JoeCanada42 · 25th January 2023, 12:04 AM

Hey Jim, actually most of what I know about this sword is thanks to you.

I like to imagine it was handed out as a reward or payment to a recruit or for accomplishment during the war periods or perhaps in lieu of payment or bounty, perhaps a translation could help figure it out. it does seem genuinely old even if it was used or sold for other purposes. at the price I paid I am happy with it.

I assumed it was a locally made cast alloy guard, do you think it is of ottoman make?
thanks

JoeCanada42 · 25th January 2023, 02:22 AM

got most of it I think

Teisani · 25th January 2023, 06:27 AM

About the cross-guard, other than Ottoman, could it taken from a European mameluk sabre, like this one? https://www.sabresempire.com/2012/03...uk_04.html?m=1

Although there are some Ottoman guards of similar proportions, like this one. https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/31300

The only strange thing about it are the quillon endings, usually they have a circular or polygonal (regulate octogon for example) in cross section. This guard seems to have a rectangular cross section.

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2023, 06:10 PM

Joe, thank you, and nicely done with imaging the thuluth script.
Teisani, well observed on the guard. Here I will point out that the character of this guard is in 'the style of' the Ottoman types, which were indeed copied by the Europeans in their admiration of the Mamluks in the Egyptian campaigns late 18th-early 19th c.

However, as seen on the kaskara with thuluth blade I posted, the guard is brass rather than iron, and these shops were casting brass components in these times. This example is rough, without the finer ring at the base, and more like locally cast.

After the untimely death of the Mahdi in 1885, the impetus of the jihad was threatened as obviously the death of their Messiah was disconcerting. The Khaliph, in my opinion, began the decoration of the blades on these swords as well as the various tribal weapons from other regions for those tribesmen conscripted into Ansar forces.

Many of these were produced at the Beit al Amana (Omdurman arsenal) however it is believed many of the throwing knives and other forms may have been produced at Khartoum (whose arsenal remained intact after Gordon's downfall in 1885).

The Mahdi was known for his 'magic' and while Briggs noted (1965, p.75) that this script was "...decorative but unreadable designs imitating Qur'anic script, believed to have amuletic value". ...we now know that in many cases there were references to the Mahdi's 'angels' as well as phrases of Islamic piety and war cries, invocations.
While as can be seen, some of the script is repetitive, there are variations with genuine invocations .

This style of Islamic calligraphy, of the forms, thuluth is of course broader and bolder, and known for decorative use on Mamluk arms and metalwork,
The Mamluk traditions were well established in Sudan, and their conservative conventions in arms and armor are likely the source of much influence in Sudanese arms.

Many of the heavily acid etched weapons of varied forms, and atypical in cases were awarded to the tribal chiefs and leaders of the contingents in the Ansar forces, so this may be such an anomaly. Clearly the pommel and guard are non compliant with kaskara, but there were efforts to use weapons of forms of indiginous weapons of other tribes, so perhaps this lunette pommel might be such a case.

The lizard skin (waran) and crocodile hide are totemic symbols of strength and power of the warrior, used widely through Sudan. While many insist these are again, tourist souvenirs, it is known that weapons with these hides were well represented on the battlefield at Omdurman and other actions in these campaigns.

Teisani · 25th January 2023, 06:21 PM

I agree Jim. It looks like a locally made cross-guard, trying to replicate the Ottoman style.

JoeCanada42 · 25th January 2023, 06:26 PM

Hi, thanks for the info

I will mention I did see this sword

Dervish Sword

https://www.thehighlandersmuseum.com/?p=30010

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2023, 08:08 PM

Excellent catch Joe!
As they say here in Texas, "well there ya go!".

kahnjar1 · 26th January 2023, 05:28 AM

Here is one I have with Thuluth and with the scabbard of lizzard?? skin.
Stu

Teisani · 26th January 2023, 06:49 AM

The scabbard seems to be from an African rock python https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent...an_rock_python
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sout...an_rock_python

25th January 2023, 02:22 AM	#2
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	got most of it I think Attached Images

25th January 2023, 06:26 PM	#6
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Hi, thanks for the info I will mention I did see this sword Dervish Sword https://www.thehighlandersmuseum.com/?p=30010 Attached Images

26th January 2023, 05:28 AM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Here is one I have with Thuluth and with the scabbard of lizzard?? skin. Stu Attached Images

25th January 2023, 12:04 AM	#1
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Hey Jim, actually most of what I know about this sword is thanks to you. I like to imagine it was handed out as a reward or payment to a recruit or for accomplishment during the war periods or perhaps in lieu of payment or bounty, perhaps a translation could help figure it out. it does seem genuinely old even if it was used or sold for other purposes. at the price I paid I am happy with it. I assumed it was a locally made cast alloy guard, do you think it is of ottoman make? thanks

25th January 2023, 06:27 AM	#3
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	About the cross-guard, other than Ottoman, could it taken from a European mameluk sabre, like this one? https://www.sabresempire.com/2012/03...uk_04.html?m=1 Although there are some Ottoman guards of similar proportions, like this one. https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/31300 The only strange thing about it are the quillon endings, usually they have a circular or polygonal (regulate octogon for example) in cross section. This guard seems to have a rectangular cross section.

25th January 2023, 06:10 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Joe, thank you, and nicely done with imaging the thuluth script. Teisani, well observed on the guard. Here I will point out that the character of this guard is in 'the style of' the Ottoman types, which were indeed copied by the Europeans in their admiration of the Mamluks in the Egyptian campaigns late 18th-early 19th c. However, as seen on the kaskara with thuluth blade I posted, the guard is brass rather than iron, and these shops were casting brass components in these times. This example is rough, without the finer ring at the base, and more like locally cast. After the untimely death of the Mahdi in 1885, the impetus of the jihad was threatened as obviously the death of their Messiah was disconcerting. The Khaliph, in my opinion, began the decoration of the blades on these swords as well as the various tribal weapons from other regions for those tribesmen conscripted into Ansar forces. Many of these were produced at the Beit al Amana (Omdurman arsenal) however it is believed many of the throwing knives and other forms may have been produced at Khartoum (whose arsenal remained intact after Gordon's downfall in 1885). The Mahdi was known for his 'magic' and while Briggs noted (1965, p.75) that this script was "...decorative but unreadable designs imitating Qur'anic script, believed to have amuletic value". ...we now know that in many cases there were references to the Mahdi's 'angels' as well as phrases of Islamic piety and war cries, invocations. While as can be seen, some of the script is repetitive, there are variations with genuine invocations . This style of Islamic calligraphy, of the forms, thuluth is of course broader and bolder, and known for decorative use on Mamluk arms and metalwork, The Mamluk traditions were well established in Sudan, and their conservative conventions in arms and armor are likely the source of much influence in Sudanese arms. Many of the heavily acid etched weapons of varied forms, and atypical in cases were awarded to the tribal chiefs and leaders of the contingents in the Ansar forces, so this may be such an anomaly. Clearly the pommel and guard are non compliant with kaskara, but there were efforts to use weapons of forms of indiginous weapons of other tribes, so perhaps this lunette pommel might be such a case. The lizard skin (waran) and crocodile hide are totemic symbols of strength and power of the warrior, used widely through Sudan. While many insist these are again, tourist souvenirs, it is known that weapons with these hides were well represented on the battlefield at Omdurman and other actions in these campaigns.

25th January 2023, 06:21 PM	#5
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	I agree Jim. It looks like a locally made cross-guard, trying to replicate the Ottoman style.

25th January 2023, 08:08 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Excellent catch Joe! As they say here in Texas, "well there ya go!".

26th January 2023, 06:49 AM	#9
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	The scabbard seems to be from an African rock python https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent...an_rock_python https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sout...an_rock_python