Wallachian Swords of the 15th Century: What Types?

Teisani · 21st January 2023, 07:06 PM

Here's another example of the same depiction used for two different people, Bathory Istvan and False Dmitry I.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...33_-_1586).jpg

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license

Teisani · 24th January 2023, 07:50 PM

This just gets weirder and weirder.

1 - two Michael the Brave portraits combined to give on Andrei Movilă/Andrzej Mohyła.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...i_Viteazul.jpg

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...aiViteazul.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rij_Mohyla.jpg

2 - how about this portrait of Bethlen Gabor (see attached picture), which is actually another portrait of Michael the Brave. Although this likely is a more modern mistaken identity.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki..._Viteazul).png

Teisani · 24th January 2023, 08:26 PM

Last examples:

1 - Gabor Bethlen with and without hat.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...d_01_439_2.jpg
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...d_01_437_2.jpg

2 - Bocskai István with and without sabre.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ay-istvan1.jpg
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...re_bocskai.jpg

After seeing all of this, I now have a healthy dose of scepticism when looking at these old depictions.

ariel · 26th January 2023, 05:52 AM

Perhaps, the most informative source of old Hungarian swords is the so-called Kepes Kronica, " The illustrates chronic", a book written in ~1370 on the order of a Hungarian King Louis ( Lajos) I. It shows a variety of Hungarian armamentarium at that time: a co-existence of both European and Oriental swords.

The very first illustration shows the king sitting on the throne and surrounded by the local aristocracy. On his right side ( our left) are definitely European knights wearing typical European armour and carrying straight swords. Those are the European warriors serving him and coming from different Christian principalities including France: Louis I belonged to Angevine dynasty.

But on his left ( our right) are several swarthy, bearded and mustachioed individuals wearing long Oriental robes and carrying curved sabers. Those are the Cumans ( Quipchaks) who came to Hungary after 1237, escaping the onslaught of the Batu Khan’s Golden Horde on Eastern and Central Europe.

ariel · 26th January 2023, 06:21 AM

The army of Batu Khan reached the Adriatic Coast of the Balkans and their swords entered the local armamentariums.
Here are two frescoes from Serbian monasteries built in 1346 and 1347: St. Nikita in Gracanica monastery and St Mikhael in St. Demetrius monastery. Both are armed with typical nomadic sabers.

Teisani · 19th February 2023, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Perhaps, the most informative source of old Hungarian swords is the so-called Kepes Kronica...

Sabres
Yes, the Chronicon Pictum or Képes Krónika is an important source for East/Central European history. As you mentioned, in it, are depicted steppe people elements (Cumans) in this part of Europe. Interestingly the pommels have peen-blocks.

Here are the pages with sabres depicted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroni...trónon_(2).jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K...B3maiakkal.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A...C3%B3nika).jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K...,_%C3%96rs.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bela_menekul.jpg

The sabres depicted match this type in my opinion http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=10. Except the one shown in the second link, which is a typical steppe sabre.
Although this discussion would be more relevant in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28312

==========================

Vlachs
Chronicon Pictum is also important for those interested for those in the history of Wallachia as the establishment is closelly linked to the battle of Posada in 1330.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:C...dai_csata1.JPG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K...9t_fogadja.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V...cle_Posada.jpg

Teisani · 19th February 2023, 10:44 AM

Moldovan at the wedding procession of Sigismund III Vasa into Cracow in 1605. Depiction on the Stockholm Roll/Rolka sztokholmska/Polska rullen.
https://ro.pinterest.com/pin/543809723761525502/
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...en_-_81237.jpg

Personal notes:
1 - the clothes he is wearing are very close to those of Michael the Brave (1558-1601) and Ieremia Movilă (1555-1606). Especially the cap called gugiuman made of sable fur (Martes zibellina), with a white bottom (for the voivode/ruler and his sons) or with a red bottom (for the boyars). The hat pin (called a surguci) also matches Mihai and Ieremia's style. In fact, Movilă was a close ally of Poland-Lithuania at that time, and a rival of Michael the Brave. He is also wearing the same yellow boots that Movilă has, and that were so popular in the region. Vasile Lupu (1595-1661) ruler of Moldova and his son Ioan Lupu also have similar hats.
2 - he seems to have a koncerz/hegyestőr and a sabre, same as others depicted.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...miah_Grave.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/M...aiViteazul.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/M...ul_wiki_en.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...asile_Lupu.jpg
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi%C8%...23FBEC2C19.jpg

Teisani · 21st February 2023, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teisani

2 - he seems to have a koncerz/hegyestőr and a sabre, same as others depicted.

Addendum: his (and others') koncerz/hegyestőr looks similar to these from the Magyar National Museum in Budapest:
http://www.museumap.hu/record/-/reco...ted-bib5837785
http://gepeskonyv.btk.elte.hu/adatok...sp_id=502.html
https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...r-magyarorszag

Evgeny_K · 21st February 2023, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teisani

The sabres depicted match this type in my opinion http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=10.

Very interesting, thank you!

Teisani · 21st February 2023, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Very interesting, thank you!

You're welcome. By the way, do you have any additional info for this sabre? Maybe some additional photos to share? It's a really nice specimen.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=15

24th January 2023, 07:50 PM	#2
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	This just gets weirder and weirder. 1 - two Michael the Brave portraits combined to give on Andrei Movilă/Andrzej Mohyła. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...i_Viteazul.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...aiViteazul.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rij_Mohyla.jpg 2 - how about this portrait of Bethlen Gabor (see attached picture), which is actually another portrait of Michael the Brave. Although this likely is a more modern mistaken identity. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki..._Viteazul).png Attached Images Last edited by Teisani; 24th January 2023 at 08:03 PM.

26th January 2023, 05:52 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Perhaps, the most informative source of old Hungarian swords is the so-called Kepes Kronica, " The illustrates chronic", a book written in ~1370 on the order of a Hungarian King Louis ( Lajos) I. It shows a variety of Hungarian armamentarium at that time: a co-existence of both European and Oriental swords. The very first illustration shows the king sitting on the throne and surrounded by the local aristocracy. On his right side ( our left) are definitely European knights wearing typical European armour and carrying straight swords. Those are the European warriors serving him and coming from different Christian principalities including France: Louis I belonged to Angevine dynasty. But on his left ( our right) are several swarthy, bearded and mustachioed individuals wearing long Oriental robes and carrying curved sabers. Those are the Cumans ( Quipchaks) who came to Hungary after 1237, escaping the onslaught of the Batu Khan’s Golden Horde on Eastern and Central Europe. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 27th January 2023 at 03:27 AM.

26th January 2023, 06:21 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The army of Batu Khan reached the Adriatic Coast of the Balkans and their swords entered the local armamentariums. Here are two frescoes from Serbian monasteries built in 1346 and 1347: St. Nikita in Gracanica monastery and St Mikhael in St. Demetrius monastery. Both are armed with typical nomadic sabers. Attached Images

19th February 2023, 10:44 AM	#7
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Moldovan at the wedding procession of Sigismund III Vasa into Cracow in 1605. Depiction on the Stockholm Roll/Rolka sztokholmska/Polska rullen. https://ro.pinterest.com/pin/543809723761525502/ https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...en_-_81237.jpg Personal notes: 1 - the clothes he is wearing are very close to those of Michael the Brave (1558-1601) and Ieremia Movilă (1555-1606). Especially the cap called gugiuman made of sable fur (Martes zibellina), with a white bottom (for the voivode/ruler and his sons) or with a red bottom (for the boyars). The hat pin (called a surguci) also matches Mihai and Ieremia's style. In fact, Movilă was a close ally of Poland-Lithuania at that time, and a rival of Michael the Brave. He is also wearing the same yellow boots that Movilă has, and that were so popular in the region. Vasile Lupu (1595-1661) ruler of Moldova and his son Ioan Lupu also have similar hats. 2 - he seems to have a koncerz/hegyestőr and a sabre, same as others depicted. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...miah_Grave.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/M...aiViteazul.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/M...ul_wiki_en.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...asile_Lupu.jpg https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi%C8%...23FBEC2C19.jpg Attached Images Last edited by Teisani; 19th February 2023 at 11:05 AM.

21st January 2023, 07:06 PM	#1
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Here's another example of the same depiction used for two different people, Bathory Istvan and False Dmitry I. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...33_-_1586).jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license

24th January 2023, 08:26 PM	#3
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Last examples: 1 - Gabor Bethlen with and without hat. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...d_01_439_2.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...d_01_437_2.jpg 2 - Bocskai István with and without sabre. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ay-istvan1.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...re_bocskai.jpg After seeing all of this, I now have a healthy dose of scepticism when looking at these old depictions.