Dating the Schiavons sword

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Keith and Cathey!
Actually the grip was professionally redone about 25 years ago, but the entire sword is together as original. It seems quite possible that a traditional hilt, likely earlier was mounted with this blade in latter 18th c. Quite possibly the motto with Ferdinand IV was added in the period noted during Napoleonic events.

It does seem likely the hole was for a ring, which I can only imagine was for a sword knot of sorts, but the scanty detail in references on schiavona do not, as far as I know, mention this feature. There are many elements of minutiae with sword elements such as this which remain a mystery, for example notched blades and other.

[urbanspaceman]

Continuing on the subject of schiavona blades:
Jim suggested it unlikely the Europeans ever used wootz, but mentioned Bulat.
This made me return to a question I posed earlier, i.e. where did the schiavona blades come from? Are there any with smith markings?
Considering the history of the sword style, and its endurance through two hundred years with barely a significant change, it would seem that it could be Bavaria/Italy as well as Solingen... yes? Please correct my ignorance here if required.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually the wootz phenomenon was much admired by Europeans, and through the 18th century there was a degree of study and attempt to reverse engineer this high carbon steel. I know so little on metallurgy that I can only recount historical record in noting that reasonable 'interpretations' of wootz were produced by 1790s early 1800s in England, but most impressive were the Russian versions known as 'bulat'. Unfortunately the scientist passed away before he published his work.

While more cannot be said briefly, despite some cases of wootz-like steel, it was not something widely nor certainly commercially known or used in Europe. Even in India and the Middle East, the art was lost, and trade blades became the norm.

The source of schiavona blades is a well placed question, and it appears that the early examples were of course from Italian centers, notably of course Belluno, and makers in those regions from Milan, Lucca and others.
Mostly there are 'guild' associated marks but not always identifiable to a certain maker. It seems the case where a makers name is on the blade would be most unusual.

By the 17th century, the south German makers as well as locations in Styria supplied blades used for mounting these type hilts in Italy. There are cases where Croatian or Slavic names have been found, but I believe on hilts.
As the term for 'schiavona' for these swords suggests, these were traditionally associated with Slavic troops guarding the Doges Palace in Venice thus the term that ended up being used. These were typically Dalmatian (Croatian).
These swords were used not only throughout other Italian locations but somewhat in other contexts where Italy had presence.

The 'kings head' on one schiavona blade (Wundes, 1580-1610 Solingen; unidentified mark on another, likely Italian and another 'marca di Mosca' noted from the centers situated in and around Belluno (of course the location of the fabled Andrea Ferara).

[Victrix]

Yes, I think Jim is absolutely right on the Schiavona blades.

I read somewhere that many skeleton hilt type schiavonas are found in the Armoury in Venice, but not the type with lattice hilt baskets which are mostly found in Dalmatia. Maybe the schiavonas started as skeleton hilts used by Slavonian mercenaries in Venice, who then continued the tradition in their homeland on the Eastern shore of the Adriatic which developed into lattice hilts over time with fashion? Allegedly schiavonas were also swirled around as part of a martial dance at festivals in Dalmatia, so very much became part of the local culture.

Some schiavonas were probably locally hilted in Dalmatia, and boats were known to travel up and down the coast selling trade blades for this purpose. I think schiavonas are found with blades from just about everywhere. What’s special about them is the hilt with the characteristic basket and pommel. And we mustn’t forget the thumb ring which is interesting as it made it an effective slashing as well as thrusting sword. They are very much meant for business.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems most I have ever read regarding evolution of the distinctive schiavona hilt suggests they evolved primarily from Hungarian/Croatian swords with the familiar S-guards seen in the landsknecht type 'katzbalgers' and other such fighting swords of 16th-17th c.

It is tempting to associate the 'cats head' pommel with the cat simile (=vicious fighting) of katzbalger, though clearly this is simply a suggestion.

The Hungarians, Croatians and Venice seem to have been aligned in diplomatic arrangements from the 16th c. onward, though I am unclear on these details.

The so called 'skeleton' type hilts which resemble rib cage I think were termed squelette in French and referred to rapiers with these complex hilts.
I have not seen the examples in Venice of these, but it seems they were well established as a rapier hilt form contemporary to the swept hilt.

It would seem that the lattice type hilt evolved much in the manner of the rapier hilt in Italy which simply added elements of bars and rings for hand protection, but seem to have evolved somewhat gradually. The Italian arms makers were known for innovation and very much set the pace for arms and armor in these periods.

I think such evolution of the schiavona hilt most likely evolved in Italian context with the Dalmatian swords having their innovation added from early times in 16th c. in accord with other Italian sword development.
The lattice style is unique, and it is hard to determine what influence might have promoted it.
The basket type hilts of forms of dusagge and such fighting swords of North Europe and Germany may well have influenced the hilt design.

It was once thought that the Scottish basket hilt developed from the influence of the schiavona, but these seem to have evolved from the same European developing of the baskets on these swords.
The schiavona seems to have been in its developed form by end of the 16th c.

[Victrix]

Thank you for that Jim. Interesting with some added depth to the origins of skeleton and lattice hilt baskets. I think the “cat’s head” pommel of the schiavona refers to the “ears” protruding from the upper corners of the pommel, rather than the katzbalger (“catbrawl”) swords of medieval times. This is believed to be a stylistic representation of the Lion of St.Mark which was the symbol of Venice (Lion is a large cat animal).

[Victrix]

With regards to the little hole in the upper quadrant of the pommel in some schiavonas mentioned by Jim, it seems to have been used to tie the tip of the end of the basket hilt to the pommel with some wire. I believe Ewart Oakeshott mentions in his books that he believes the holes were later additions by Victorian collectors. But in the case of Jim’s schiavona the hole in the pommel looks very old and has the same patina as the rest so looks original or at least period. I suggest the basket hilt was attached to the pommel to give extra strength and keep it straight. In a melee it might be tempting to use the basket hilt opportunistically as a knuckleduster which could cause the basket hilt to twist/rotate around the axis and eventually break. Tying it to the pommel would give some extra strength by making it less likely to twist and break.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys, and thankyou Victrix for that great picture.

I have now started working on an extensive article on the Schiavona for the Heritage Arms Magazine Barrels and Blades. At present I have the following references noted and available:

AKEHURST, Richard Antique Weapons - for Pleasure and Investment Pp 8,
ALEKSIC Marko Mediaeval Swords from South-eastern Europe Pp 7, 9, 20-22, 98, 192-194
Article: A Venetian excellence: the Schiavona
BECK Carl Waffensammlung Schiavona, Italian/Venetian, 2nd Half Of The 18th Century
BINK Jean The Schiavona
BLAIR, Claude The James A. De Rothschild Collection At Waddesdon Manor - Arms, Armour and Base-Metalwork Pp 78, 79, 80,
BLAIR-C-European & American Arms c1100-1850 Pp 3, 10, 16, 52, 84, Plate 176, 219 Schiavona Dagger
BOCCIA L.G., COELHO E.T., EDITRICE B. Armi Bianche Italiane Pp 23, Plates 765 – 770, Pp 386-387, 421-422
Boris V Schiavona – the sword of warrior Slovenes
Bozzolan Millo The Schiavona Sword, A Balkan Weapon, But Probably Born In Belluno
Boz Milo A Slave Sword For The Serenissima
DEMMIN Auguste An Illustrated History of Arms & Armour Pp 379, 388, 432, 564
DUFTY Arthur Richard European Swords and Daggers in the Tower of London pp 23, 34, Plate 44-45
Ehretsmann Martin The Skeleton Guard & the Fishnet Guard
FFOULKES C J The Armouries of the Tower of London Vol 2Pp 287, 288
FFOULKES Charles Armour & Weapons Pp 101, 102
FFOULKES Charles European Arms and Armour in the University of Oxford Pp 34, 35
FLIEGEL, Stephen N. ARMS AND ARMOR THE CLEVELAND MUSEUM OF ART Pp 116, 168, 169, 178
FORD-Roger-weapon a visual history of arms and armor Pp 106
FORRER R European Sword Pommels Pp 38
GARCIA Andrew F The Collector' Course on Medieval Arms & Armour Pp 33, 261, 243, 264, 265, 266, 269, 298-299, 309, 343, 331,
HELD Robert Art, Arms and Armour An International Anthology Pp 59, 64, 71
HUTTON, Alfred, F.S.A. The Sword and the Centuries Plate 288,
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 1 Fig 232, Pp IX, XXIV, 193
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 2 302,
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 4 Pp 325 - 328,
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 5 Pp 318, 322, 342, 345, 370
MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd Pp 66, 67, Plate 181-183, Pp 384, 432, 440
MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER 66, 384, 432
Overseas Regiment (Schiavoni)
NORDSTROM Lena White Arms of the Royal Armoury Pp 322
OAKESHOTT, Ewart European Weapons and Armour Plate 15 Pp 182-191
PIREK, Michal Schiavonas: Venetian swords in Bratislava castle's collection
PUYPE J.P. WIEKART A.A. Van Maurits naar munster Pp 96
PUYPE Jan Piet The Visser Collection Volume 1 Part 3 Pp 130, 132,
Robinson Nathan Spotlight: The Schiavona and its Influences
SACH, Jan & KRAUS,Valtr Illustriertes Lexikon der Hieb- und Stichwaffen Schiavona 72/75, 116-119/138-142, 253
SEITZ Heribert - Blankwaffen 1 schiavoni 170, 171
SEITZ Heribert – Blankwaffen 2 schiavona 32, 108, 113, 117, 122- 126
SERCER Marija Shiavona references
Shiavona Ross Arms
SOUTHWICK Leslie The Price Guide to Antique Edged Weapons Pp 25, 152 Schiavona, 269, 271, 34, 415-418 Schiavoni, 271, 34
STONE-G-C-Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms & Armour Pp 181, 544, 595,
TARASSUK Leonid & BLAIR Claude The Complete Encyclopaedia of Arms & Weapons Pp 416
The Perfect Sword Slave
The Schiavona Sword-A 17th century Croatian Masterpiece
Veneto History The Slave Sword, Everything You Don't Find In Wiki
WAGNER Eduard Cut and Thrust Weapons Pp 29, 99, 172, 173
WAGNER, Eduard SWORDS AND DAGGERS Hamlyn Pp 35, 75,
WILKINSON Frederick Swords & Daggers Schiavona pp 24; 78, 79
WILKINSON-LATHAM R.J. Pictorial History of Swords & Bayonets Pp 8, 39
WILKINSON-LATHAM Robert Swords in Colour Including other Edged Weapons Pp Schiavona, 19, 25, 26.
WITHERS Harvey J S The World Encyclopedia of Swords and Sabres Pp 48, 167, 169, 246, 249, 250
WITHERS, Harvey J.S. World Swords 1400 – 1945 Pp 27, 28, 29,

I was wondering if anyone either has or can recommend some additional references I might consult.

The plan at this stage is to focus mostly on the hilt construction and pommel variations. As with Scottish Basket Hilts, blades are not much use for dating purposes as they were often imported or family blades reused.

Cheers Cathey

[Triarii]

This is mine. Needs a bit of a clean up. No markings on the blade, which is 38" long. Surprisingly handy for such a hefty weapon if you finger the blade at the ricasso.

[werecow]

The schiavona is nr 1 on my list of swords to pursue, so this thread is incredibly helpful, thanks for sharing all this research!

EDIT: This thread (about my own personal favorite example) is worth checking out as it has some gorgeous examples. If I can one day find one similar to that one it would be the centerpiece of my collection perhaps for the rest of my life. The collection of the guy who bought it is impressive, to say the least:





Still bummed. }|:oP