Dating the Schiavons sword

urbanspaceman · 10th January 2023, 08:39 PM

Ho Jim. Your hilt seems to be between the fifth and sixth pattern, but with the iron pommel.
My suggestion is that the wire-wound grip came with a re-blading of the hilt some fifty years into its life. Any thoughts?

Cathey · 10th January 2023, 10:14 PM

Hi Jim,

I think the hilt on yours is earlier what I describe as the Fifth pattern. Pommels are fascinating as the range of shape and style is unusual and they don’t appear tied to a particular period. I think the plainer iron pommels where simply a more economical fitting which might be why are seen on Schiavona’s from 1600 through to the end around 1790. As for the hole in the pommel, sometime a ring is fitted that attaches, yet sometimes not. In the case of latest Schiavona that dates around 1780 the hole does not actually go through at all.

Cheers Cathey

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2023, 12:37 AM

Thank you Keith and Cathey!
Actually the grip was professionally redone about 25 years ago, but the entire sword is together as original. It seems quite possible that a traditional hilt, likely earlier was mounted with this blade in latter 18th c. Quite possibly the motto with Ferdinand IV was added in the period noted during Napoleonic events.

It does seem likely the hole was for a ring, which I can only imagine was for a sword knot of sorts, but the scanty detail in references on schiavona do not, as far as I know, mention this feature. There are many elements of minutiae with sword elements such as this which remain a mystery, for example notched blades and other.

urbanspaceman · 11th January 2023, 10:03 AM

Continuing on the subject of schiavona blades:
Jim suggested it unlikely the Europeans ever used wootz, but mentioned Bulat.
This made me return to a question I posed earlier, i.e. where did the schiavona blades come from? Are there any with smith markings?
Considering the history of the sword style, and its endurance through two hundred years with barely a significant change, it would seem that it could be Bavaria/Italy as well as Solingen... yes? Please correct my ignorance here if required.

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2023, 06:12 PM

Actually the wootz phenomenon was much admired by Europeans, and through the 18th century there was a degree of study and attempt to reverse engineer this high carbon steel. I know so little on metallurgy that I can only recount historical record in noting that reasonable 'interpretations' of wootz were produced by 1790s early 1800s in England, but most impressive were the Russian versions known as 'bulat'. Unfortunately the scientist passed away before he published his work.

While more cannot be said briefly, despite some cases of wootz-like steel, it was not something widely nor certainly commercially known or used in Europe. Even in India and the Middle East, the art was lost, and trade blades became the norm.

The source of schiavona blades is a well placed question, and it appears that the early examples were of course from Italian centers, notably of course Belluno, and makers in those regions from Milan, Lucca and others.
Mostly there are 'guild' associated marks but not always identifiable to a certain maker. It seems the case where a makers name is on the blade would be most unusual.

By the 17th century, the south German makers as well as locations in Styria supplied blades used for mounting these type hilts in Italy. There are cases where Croatian or Slavic names have been found, but I believe on hilts.
As the term for 'schiavona' for these swords suggests, these were traditionally associated with Slavic troops guarding the Doges Palace in Venice thus the term that ended up being used. These were typically Dalmatian (Croatian).
These swords were used not only throughout other Italian locations but somewhat in other contexts where Italy had presence.

The 'kings head' on one schiavona blade (Wundes, 1580-1610 Solingen; unidentified mark on another, likely Italian and another 'marca di Mosca' noted from the centers situated in and around Belluno (of course the location of the fabled Andrea Ferara).

Victrix · 11th January 2023, 07:21 PM

Yes, I think Jim is absolutely right on the Schiavona blades.

I read somewhere that many skeleton hilt type schiavonas are found in the Armoury in Venice, but not the type with lattice hilt baskets which are mostly found in Dalmatia. Maybe the schiavonas started as skeleton hilts used by Slavonian mercenaries in Venice, who then continued the tradition in their homeland on the Eastern shore of the Adriatic which developed into lattice hilts over time with fashion? Allegedly schiavonas were also swirled around as part of a martial dance at festivals in Dalmatia, so very much became part of the local culture.

Some schiavonas were probably locally hilted in Dalmatia, and boats were known to travel up and down the coast selling trade blades for this purpose. I think schiavonas are found with blades from just about everywhere. What’s special about them is the hilt with the characteristic basket and pommel. And we mustn’t forget the thumb ring which is interesting as it made it an effective slashing as well as thrusting sword. They are very much meant for business.

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2023, 08:27 PM

It seems most I have ever read regarding evolution of the distinctive schiavona hilt suggests they evolved primarily from Hungarian/Croatian swords with the familiar S-guards seen in the landsknecht type 'katzbalgers' and other such fighting swords of 16th-17th c.

It is tempting to associate the 'cats head' pommel with the cat simile (=vicious fighting) of katzbalger, though clearly this is simply a suggestion.

The Hungarians, Croatians and Venice seem to have been aligned in diplomatic arrangements from the 16th c. onward, though I am unclear on these details.

The so called 'skeleton' type hilts which resemble rib cage I think were termed squelette in French and referred to rapiers with these complex hilts.
I have not seen the examples in Venice of these, but it seems they were well established as a rapier hilt form contemporary to the swept hilt.

It would seem that the lattice type hilt evolved much in the manner of the rapier hilt in Italy which simply added elements of bars and rings for hand protection, but seem to have evolved somewhat gradually. The Italian arms makers were known for innovation and very much set the pace for arms and armor in these periods.

I think such evolution of the schiavona hilt most likely evolved in Italian context with the Dalmatian swords having their innovation added from early times in 16th c. in accord with other Italian sword development.
The lattice style is unique, and it is hard to determine what influence might have promoted it.
The basket type hilts of forms of dusagge and such fighting swords of North Europe and Germany may well have influenced the hilt design.

It was once thought that the Scottish basket hilt developed from the influence of the schiavona, but these seem to have evolved from the same European developing of the baskets on these swords.
The schiavona seems to have been in its developed form by end of the 16th c.

10th January 2023, 08:39 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	Dating Schiavona Ho Jim. Your hilt seems to be between the fifth and sixth pattern, but with the iron pommel. My suggestion is that the wire-wound grip came with a re-blading of the hilt some fifty years into its life. Any thoughts?

10th January 2023, 10:14 PM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Schiavona pommels Hi Jim, I think the hilt on yours is earlier what I describe as the Fifth pattern. Pommels are fascinating as the range of shape and style is unusual and they don’t appear tied to a particular period. I think the plainer iron pommels where simply a more economical fitting which might be why are seen on Schiavona’s from 1600 through to the end around 1790. As for the hole in the pommel, sometime a ring is fitted that attaches, yet sometimes not. In the case of latest Schiavona that dates around 1780 the hole does not actually go through at all. Cheers Cathey

11th January 2023, 10:03 AM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	schiavona blades Continuing on the subject of schiavona blades: Jim suggested it unlikely the Europeans ever used wootz, but mentioned Bulat. This made me return to a question I posed earlier, i.e. where did the schiavona blades come from? Are there any with smith markings? Considering the history of the sword style, and its endurance through two hundred years with barely a significant change, it would seem that it could be Bavaria/Italy as well as Solingen... yes? Please correct my ignorance here if required.

11th January 2023, 06:12 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Actually the wootz phenomenon was much admired by Europeans, and through the 18th century there was a degree of study and attempt to reverse engineer this high carbon steel. I know so little on metallurgy that I can only recount historical record in noting that reasonable 'interpretations' of wootz were produced by 1790s early 1800s in England, but most impressive were the Russian versions known as 'bulat'. Unfortunately the scientist passed away before he published his work. While more cannot be said briefly, despite some cases of wootz-like steel, it was not something widely nor certainly commercially known or used in Europe. Even in India and the Middle East, the art was lost, and trade blades became the norm. The source of schiavona blades is a well placed question, and it appears that the early examples were of course from Italian centers, notably of course Belluno, and makers in those regions from Milan, Lucca and others. Mostly there are 'guild' associated marks but not always identifiable to a certain maker. It seems the case where a makers name is on the blade would be most unusual. By the 17th century, the south German makers as well as locations in Styria supplied blades used for mounting these type hilts in Italy. There are cases where Croatian or Slavic names have been found, but I believe on hilts. As the term for 'schiavona' for these swords suggests, these were traditionally associated with Slavic troops guarding the Doges Palace in Venice thus the term that ended up being used. These were typically Dalmatian (Croatian). These swords were used not only throughout other Italian locations but somewhat in other contexts where Italy had presence. The 'kings head' on one schiavona blade (Wundes, 1580-1610 Solingen; unidentified mark on another, likely Italian and another 'marca di Mosca' noted from the centers situated in and around Belluno (of course the location of the fabled Andrea Ferara). Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th January 2023 at 06:47 PM.

11th January 2023, 07:21 PM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Yes, I think Jim is absolutely right on the Schiavona blades. I read somewhere that many skeleton hilt type schiavonas are found in the Armoury in Venice, but not the type with lattice hilt baskets which are mostly found in Dalmatia. Maybe the schiavonas started as skeleton hilts used by Slavonian mercenaries in Venice, who then continued the tradition in their homeland on the Eastern shore of the Adriatic which developed into lattice hilts over time with fashion? Allegedly schiavonas were also swirled around as part of a martial dance at festivals in Dalmatia, so very much became part of the local culture. Some schiavonas were probably locally hilted in Dalmatia, and boats were known to travel up and down the coast selling trade blades for this purpose. I think schiavonas are found with blades from just about everywhere. What’s special about them is the hilt with the characteristic basket and pommel. And we mustn’t forget the thumb ring which is interesting as it made it an effective slashing as well as thrusting sword. They are very much meant for business. Attached Images

11th January 2023, 12:37 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you Keith and Cathey! Actually the grip was professionally redone about 25 years ago, but the entire sword is together as original. It seems quite possible that a traditional hilt, likely earlier was mounted with this blade in latter 18th c. Quite possibly the motto with Ferdinand IV was added in the period noted during Napoleonic events. It does seem likely the hole was for a ring, which I can only imagine was for a sword knot of sorts, but the scanty detail in references on schiavona do not, as far as I know, mention this feature. There are many elements of minutiae with sword elements such as this which remain a mystery, for example notched blades and other.

11th January 2023, 08:27 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	It seems most I have ever read regarding evolution of the distinctive schiavona hilt suggests they evolved primarily from Hungarian/Croatian swords with the familiar S-guards seen in the landsknecht type 'katzbalgers' and other such fighting swords of 16th-17th c. It is tempting to associate the 'cats head' pommel with the cat simile (=vicious fighting) of katzbalger, though clearly this is simply a suggestion. The Hungarians, Croatians and Venice seem to have been aligned in diplomatic arrangements from the 16th c. onward, though I am unclear on these details. The so called 'skeleton' type hilts which resemble rib cage I think were termed squelette in French and referred to rapiers with these complex hilts. I have not seen the examples in Venice of these, but it seems they were well established as a rapier hilt form contemporary to the swept hilt. It would seem that the lattice type hilt evolved much in the manner of the rapier hilt in Italy which simply added elements of bars and rings for hand protection, but seem to have evolved somewhat gradually. The Italian arms makers were known for innovation and very much set the pace for arms and armor in these periods. I think such evolution of the schiavona hilt most likely evolved in Italian context with the Dalmatian swords having their innovation added from early times in 16th c. in accord with other Italian sword development. The lattice style is unique, and it is hard to determine what influence might have promoted it. The basket type hilts of forms of dusagge and such fighting swords of North Europe and Germany may well have influenced the hilt design. It was once thought that the Scottish basket hilt developed from the influence of the schiavona, but these seem to have evolved from the same European developing of the baskets on these swords. The schiavona seems to have been in its developed form by end of the 16th c.