Dating the Schiavons sword

[urbanspaceman]

Judging by the basket style, this sword appears to qualify as the fifth issue 1640 - 1700.
Am I right in thinking this keeps it in the Solingen camp?
Is it possible that Solingen had access to sufficient wootz to make this blade?
Considering what a luxurious sword this is, it is not impossible wootz was acquired... perhaps demanded.

[Jim McDougall]

This is the only example I have of schiavona, which is interesting in reflecting the latter period of use of these distinctly hilted swords.
It is in the traditional lattice hilt with asymmetric styling, and the blade is what suggests possible cavalry use as it resembles dragoon blades of Spanish form in latter 18th c.

The inscribed lettering to Ferdinand IV of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies suggests to loyalists to him during Napoleons conquest of Naples in 1806, and after French Republicans had previously invaded Naples in 1799, with Ferdinand evacuated to Palermo.

The Two Sicilies are both Naples and Sicily which were collectively both deemed Sicily.
Ferdinand IV was son of Carlos III of Spain, and Carlos had built an arms factory in Naples at Annunziata in 1758 when he was king. In 1771 as king of Spain he built the arms factory in Toledo to try to retrieve Spains place in arms making. This may account for the blade similarity to cavalry backswords of the 18th century.

This is an amazing thread (thank you Cathey!) and great to have such a comprehensive look into these swords, and these outstanding examples posted.

I always have a piqued obsession with perhaps mundane factors, and wonder what the piercing in the upper quadrant of the pommels of these is for. It seems a repeated feature, and in cases, as seen, is not even completely through the pommel.

[urbanspaceman]

Ho Jim. Your hilt seems to be between the fifth and sixth pattern, but with the iron pommel.
My suggestion is that the wire-wound grip came with a re-blading of the hilt some fifty years into its life. Any thoughts?

[Cathey]

Hi Jim,

I think the hilt on yours is earlier what I describe as the Fifth pattern. Pommels are fascinating as the range of shape and style is unusual and they don’t appear tied to a particular period. I think the plainer iron pommels where simply a more economical fitting which might be why are seen on Schiavona’s from 1600 through to the end around 1790. As for the hole in the pommel, sometime a ring is fitted that attaches, yet sometimes not. In the case of latest Schiavona that dates around 1780 the hole does not actually go through at all.

Cheers Cathey

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Keith and Cathey!
Actually the grip was professionally redone about 25 years ago, but the entire sword is together as original. It seems quite possible that a traditional hilt, likely earlier was mounted with this blade in latter 18th c. Quite possibly the motto with Ferdinand IV was added in the period noted during Napoleonic events.

It does seem likely the hole was for a ring, which I can only imagine was for a sword knot of sorts, but the scanty detail in references on schiavona do not, as far as I know, mention this feature. There are many elements of minutiae with sword elements such as this which remain a mystery, for example notched blades and other.

[urbanspaceman]

Continuing on the subject of schiavona blades:
Jim suggested it unlikely the Europeans ever used wootz, but mentioned Bulat.
This made me return to a question I posed earlier, i.e. where did the schiavona blades come from? Are there any with smith markings?
Considering the history of the sword style, and its endurance through two hundred years with barely a significant change, it would seem that it could be Bavaria/Italy as well as Solingen... yes? Please correct my ignorance here if required.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually the wootz phenomenon was much admired by Europeans, and through the 18th century there was a degree of study and attempt to reverse engineer this high carbon steel. I know so little on metallurgy that I can only recount historical record in noting that reasonable 'interpretations' of wootz were produced by 1790s early 1800s in England, but most impressive were the Russian versions known as 'bulat'. Unfortunately the scientist passed away before he published his work.

While more cannot be said briefly, despite some cases of wootz-like steel, it was not something widely nor certainly commercially known or used in Europe. Even in India and the Middle East, the art was lost, and trade blades became the norm.

The source of schiavona blades is a well placed question, and it appears that the early examples were of course from Italian centers, notably of course Belluno, and makers in those regions from Milan, Lucca and others.
Mostly there are 'guild' associated marks but not always identifiable to a certain maker. It seems the case where a makers name is on the blade would be most unusual.

By the 17th century, the south German makers as well as locations in Styria supplied blades used for mounting these type hilts in Italy. There are cases where Croatian or Slavic names have been found, but I believe on hilts.
As the term for 'schiavona' for these swords suggests, these were traditionally associated with Slavic troops guarding the Doges Palace in Venice thus the term that ended up being used. These were typically Dalmatian (Croatian).
These swords were used not only throughout other Italian locations but somewhat in other contexts where Italy had presence.

The 'kings head' on one schiavona blade (Wundes, 1580-1610 Solingen; unidentified mark on another, likely Italian and another 'marca di Mosca' noted from the centers situated in and around Belluno (of course the location of the fabled Andrea Ferara).