Dating the Schiavons sword

urbanspaceman · 8th January 2023, 08:26 PM

Take a careful look at this image below:
there is no pixelation on any of the hilt.
The image is pretty sharp; although I take your point regarding some of his pictures.
I would suggest extra eyes on this one because I think it is wootz but I will wait and see who else agrees/disagrees.

urbanspaceman · 9th January 2023, 09:56 PM

Judging by the basket style, this sword appears to qualify as the fifth issue 1640 - 1700.
Am I right in thinking this keeps it in the Solingen camp?
Is it possible that Solingen had access to sufficient wootz to make this blade?
Considering what a luxurious sword this is, it is not impossible wootz was acquired... perhaps demanded.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2023, 06:19 PM

This is the only example I have of schiavona, which is interesting in reflecting the latter period of use of these distinctly hilted swords.
It is in the traditional lattice hilt with asymmetric styling, and the blade is what suggests possible cavalry use as it resembles dragoon blades of Spanish form in latter 18th c.

The inscribed lettering to Ferdinand IV of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies suggests to loyalists to him during Napoleons conquest of Naples in 1806, and after French Republicans had previously invaded Naples in 1799, with Ferdinand evacuated to Palermo.

The Two Sicilies are both Naples and Sicily which were collectively both deemed Sicily.
Ferdinand IV was son of Carlos III of Spain, and Carlos had built an arms factory in Naples at Annunziata in 1758 when he was king. In 1771 as king of Spain he built the arms factory in Toledo to try to retrieve Spains place in arms making. This may account for the blade similarity to cavalry backswords of the 18th century.

This is an amazing thread (thank you Cathey!) and great to have such a comprehensive look into these swords, and these outstanding examples posted.

I always have a piqued obsession with perhaps mundane factors, and wonder what the piercing in the upper quadrant of the pommels of these is for. It seems a repeated feature, and in cases, as seen, is not even completely through the pommel.

urbanspaceman · 10th January 2023, 08:39 PM

Ho Jim. Your hilt seems to be between the fifth and sixth pattern, but with the iron pommel.
My suggestion is that the wire-wound grip came with a re-blading of the hilt some fifty years into its life. Any thoughts?

Cathey · 10th January 2023, 10:14 PM

Hi Jim,

I think the hilt on yours is earlier what I describe as the Fifth pattern. Pommels are fascinating as the range of shape and style is unusual and they don’t appear tied to a particular period. I think the plainer iron pommels where simply a more economical fitting which might be why are seen on Schiavona’s from 1600 through to the end around 1790. As for the hole in the pommel, sometime a ring is fitted that attaches, yet sometimes not. In the case of latest Schiavona that dates around 1780 the hole does not actually go through at all.

Cheers Cathey

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2023, 12:37 AM

Thank you Keith and Cathey!
Actually the grip was professionally redone about 25 years ago, but the entire sword is together as original. It seems quite possible that a traditional hilt, likely earlier was mounted with this blade in latter 18th c. Quite possibly the motto with Ferdinand IV was added in the period noted during Napoleonic events.

It does seem likely the hole was for a ring, which I can only imagine was for a sword knot of sorts, but the scanty detail in references on schiavona do not, as far as I know, mention this feature. There are many elements of minutiae with sword elements such as this which remain a mystery, for example notched blades and other.

urbanspaceman · 11th January 2023, 10:03 AM

Continuing on the subject of schiavona blades:
Jim suggested it unlikely the Europeans ever used wootz, but mentioned Bulat.
This made me return to a question I posed earlier, i.e. where did the schiavona blades come from? Are there any with smith markings?
Considering the history of the sword style, and its endurance through two hundred years with barely a significant change, it would seem that it could be Bavaria/Italy as well as Solingen... yes? Please correct my ignorance here if required.

8th January 2023, 08:26 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	wootz or what Take a careful look at this image below: there is no pixelation on any of the hilt. The image is pretty sharp; although I take your point regarding some of his pictures. I would suggest extra eyes on this one because I think it is wootz but I will wait and see who else agrees/disagrees. Attached Images

9th January 2023, 09:56 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	Dating Judging by the basket style, this sword appears to qualify as the fifth issue 1640 - 1700. Am I right in thinking this keeps it in the Solingen camp? Is it possible that Solingen had access to sufficient wootz to make this blade? Considering what a luxurious sword this is, it is not impossible wootz was acquired... perhaps demanded. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 9th January 2023 at 09:57 PM. Reason: additional comment

10th January 2023, 06:19 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Schiavona cavalry backsword of Napoleonic period? This is the only example I have of schiavona, which is interesting in reflecting the latter period of use of these distinctly hilted swords. It is in the traditional lattice hilt with asymmetric styling, and the blade is what suggests possible cavalry use as it resembles dragoon blades of Spanish form in latter 18th c. The inscribed lettering to Ferdinand IV of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies suggests to loyalists to him during Napoleons conquest of Naples in 1806, and after French Republicans had previously invaded Naples in 1799, with Ferdinand evacuated to Palermo. The Two Sicilies are both Naples and Sicily which were collectively both deemed Sicily. Ferdinand IV was son of Carlos III of Spain, and Carlos had built an arms factory in Naples at Annunziata in 1758 when he was king. In 1771 as king of Spain he built the arms factory in Toledo to try to retrieve Spains place in arms making. This may account for the blade similarity to cavalry backswords of the 18th century. This is an amazing thread (thank you Cathey!) and great to have such a comprehensive look into these swords, and these outstanding examples posted. I always have a piqued obsession with perhaps mundane factors, and wonder what the piercing in the upper quadrant of the pommels of these is for. It seems a repeated feature, and in cases, as seen, is not even completely through the pommel. Attached Images

10th January 2023, 08:39 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	Dating Schiavona Ho Jim. Your hilt seems to be between the fifth and sixth pattern, but with the iron pommel. My suggestion is that the wire-wound grip came with a re-blading of the hilt some fifty years into its life. Any thoughts?

10th January 2023, 10:14 PM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Schiavona pommels Hi Jim, I think the hilt on yours is earlier what I describe as the Fifth pattern. Pommels are fascinating as the range of shape and style is unusual and they don’t appear tied to a particular period. I think the plainer iron pommels where simply a more economical fitting which might be why are seen on Schiavona’s from 1600 through to the end around 1790. As for the hole in the pommel, sometime a ring is fitted that attaches, yet sometimes not. In the case of latest Schiavona that dates around 1780 the hole does not actually go through at all. Cheers Cathey

11th January 2023, 12:37 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you Keith and Cathey! Actually the grip was professionally redone about 25 years ago, but the entire sword is together as original. It seems quite possible that a traditional hilt, likely earlier was mounted with this blade in latter 18th c. Quite possibly the motto with Ferdinand IV was added in the period noted during Napoleonic events. It does seem likely the hole was for a ring, which I can only imagine was for a sword knot of sorts, but the scanty detail in references on schiavona do not, as far as I know, mention this feature. There are many elements of minutiae with sword elements such as this which remain a mystery, for example notched blades and other.

11th January 2023, 10:03 AM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	schiavona blades Continuing on the subject of schiavona blades: Jim suggested it unlikely the Europeans ever used wootz, but mentioned Bulat. This made me return to a question I posed earlier, i.e. where did the schiavona blades come from? Are there any with smith markings? Considering the history of the sword style, and its endurance through two hundred years with barely a significant change, it would seem that it could be Bavaria/Italy as well as Solingen... yes? Please correct my ignorance here if required.