Dating the Schiavons sword

Cathey · 8th January 2023, 05:03 AM

Hi Urbanspaceman

I don’t think we are looking at a wootz blade, just some pixelization in the image on that one. I know the site it is currently posted on and some of the images always appear to be lower resolution and tend to pixelate.

With regard to pommels, it appears the latter the sword the fancier the pommel. Also, if it is a fancier version obviously made to order the pommels again vary greatly. I have a sword with a plain Iron pommel that has a mark for the hole, which is not punched through. The brass pommels and wire wrapped guards appear more often on latter swords, the early one plain iron with leather wrapping sewn in place on the grips.

My article research is progressing, so far I have had to google translate, Serbian, french, German and Italian.

Here is my latest Schiavona probably around circa 1780. Note this one has a wire wrapped grip and the most complex hilt variety, being three rows of lattice pattern. This is the one where the hole in the pommel does not go through and at this stage, I have not been able to identify the mark on the forte.

Cheers Cathey

Victrix · 8th January 2023, 11:36 AM

The last sword may be a composite. The iron pommel looks like a modern replacement to me. The blade does not seem to fit the lattice basket and does not seem to be original to it as the tang is visible and forms a ricasso. A similar composite is illustrated in “White Arms of the Royal Armoury” (Sweden, 1984) by Lena Nordström.

Cathey · 8th January 2023, 12:27 PM

Hi Victrix

I have to disagree with you on this one, having the advantage of having this sword in my hand and knowing the provenance of the collection it came from. Many of these latter Shiavona’s, have blades of this type that are original to the sword. The blade is the correct period for this hilt. Perhaps the photos do not show the age and consistency of the patina on the component parts. Also the entire sword has wonderful balance considering the size of the blade.

Cheers Cathey

urbanspaceman · 8th January 2023, 08:26 PM

Take a careful look at this image below:
there is no pixelation on any of the hilt.
The image is pretty sharp; although I take your point regarding some of his pictures.
I would suggest extra eyes on this one because I think it is wootz but I will wait and see who else agrees/disagrees.

urbanspaceman · 9th January 2023, 09:56 PM

Judging by the basket style, this sword appears to qualify as the fifth issue 1640 - 1700.
Am I right in thinking this keeps it in the Solingen camp?
Is it possible that Solingen had access to sufficient wootz to make this blade?
Considering what a luxurious sword this is, it is not impossible wootz was acquired... perhaps demanded.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2023, 06:19 PM

This is the only example I have of schiavona, which is interesting in reflecting the latter period of use of these distinctly hilted swords.
It is in the traditional lattice hilt with asymmetric styling, and the blade is what suggests possible cavalry use as it resembles dragoon blades of Spanish form in latter 18th c.

The inscribed lettering to Ferdinand IV of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies suggests to loyalists to him during Napoleons conquest of Naples in 1806, and after French Republicans had previously invaded Naples in 1799, with Ferdinand evacuated to Palermo.

The Two Sicilies are both Naples and Sicily which were collectively both deemed Sicily.
Ferdinand IV was son of Carlos III of Spain, and Carlos had built an arms factory in Naples at Annunziata in 1758 when he was king. In 1771 as king of Spain he built the arms factory in Toledo to try to retrieve Spains place in arms making. This may account for the blade similarity to cavalry backswords of the 18th century.

This is an amazing thread (thank you Cathey!) and great to have such a comprehensive look into these swords, and these outstanding examples posted.

I always have a piqued obsession with perhaps mundane factors, and wonder what the piercing in the upper quadrant of the pommels of these is for. It seems a repeated feature, and in cases, as seen, is not even completely through the pommel.

urbanspaceman · 10th January 2023, 08:39 PM

Ho Jim. Your hilt seems to be between the fifth and sixth pattern, but with the iron pommel.
My suggestion is that the wire-wound grip came with a re-blading of the hilt some fifty years into its life. Any thoughts?

8th January 2023, 05:03 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	The Shiavona Hi Urbanspaceman I don’t think we are looking at a wootz blade, just some pixelization in the image on that one. I know the site it is currently posted on and some of the images always appear to be lower resolution and tend to pixelate. With regard to pommels, it appears the latter the sword the fancier the pommel. Also, if it is a fancier version obviously made to order the pommels again vary greatly. I have a sword with a plain Iron pommel that has a mark for the hole, which is not punched through. The brass pommels and wire wrapped guards appear more often on latter swords, the early one plain iron with leather wrapping sewn in place on the grips. My article research is progressing, so far I have had to google translate, Serbian, french, German and Italian. Here is my latest Schiavona probably around circa 1780. Note this one has a wire wrapped grip and the most complex hilt variety, being three rows of lattice pattern. This is the one where the hole in the pommel does not go through and at this stage, I have not been able to identify the mark on the forte. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

8th January 2023, 11:36 AM	#2
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	The last sword may be a composite. The iron pommel looks like a modern replacement to me. The blade does not seem to fit the lattice basket and does not seem to be original to it as the tang is visible and forms a ricasso. A similar composite is illustrated in “White Arms of the Royal Armoury” (Sweden, 1984) by Lena Nordström. Attached Images

8th January 2023, 12:27 PM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Circa 1780 Schiavona, the last pattern Hi Victrix I have to disagree with you on this one, having the advantage of having this sword in my hand and knowing the provenance of the collection it came from. Many of these latter Shiavona’s, have blades of this type that are original to the sword. The blade is the correct period for this hilt. Perhaps the photos do not show the age and consistency of the patina on the component parts. Also the entire sword has wonderful balance considering the size of the blade. Cheers Cathey

8th January 2023, 08:26 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	wootz or what Take a careful look at this image below: there is no pixelation on any of the hilt. The image is pretty sharp; although I take your point regarding some of his pictures. I would suggest extra eyes on this one because I think it is wootz but I will wait and see who else agrees/disagrees. Attached Images

9th January 2023, 09:56 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	Dating Judging by the basket style, this sword appears to qualify as the fifth issue 1640 - 1700. Am I right in thinking this keeps it in the Solingen camp? Is it possible that Solingen had access to sufficient wootz to make this blade? Considering what a luxurious sword this is, it is not impossible wootz was acquired... perhaps demanded. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 9th January 2023 at 09:57 PM. Reason: additional comment

10th January 2023, 06:19 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Schiavona cavalry backsword of Napoleonic period? This is the only example I have of schiavona, which is interesting in reflecting the latter period of use of these distinctly hilted swords. It is in the traditional lattice hilt with asymmetric styling, and the blade is what suggests possible cavalry use as it resembles dragoon blades of Spanish form in latter 18th c. The inscribed lettering to Ferdinand IV of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies suggests to loyalists to him during Napoleons conquest of Naples in 1806, and after French Republicans had previously invaded Naples in 1799, with Ferdinand evacuated to Palermo. The Two Sicilies are both Naples and Sicily which were collectively both deemed Sicily. Ferdinand IV was son of Carlos III of Spain, and Carlos had built an arms factory in Naples at Annunziata in 1758 when he was king. In 1771 as king of Spain he built the arms factory in Toledo to try to retrieve Spains place in arms making. This may account for the blade similarity to cavalry backswords of the 18th century. This is an amazing thread (thank you Cathey!) and great to have such a comprehensive look into these swords, and these outstanding examples posted. I always have a piqued obsession with perhaps mundane factors, and wonder what the piercing in the upper quadrant of the pommels of these is for. It seems a repeated feature, and in cases, as seen, is not even completely through the pommel. Attached Images

10th January 2023, 08:39 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 616	Dating Schiavona Ho Jim. Your hilt seems to be between the fifth and sixth pattern, but with the iron pommel. My suggestion is that the wire-wound grip came with a re-blading of the hilt some fifty years into its life. Any thoughts?