Dating the Schiavons sword

[Victrix]

I’m not familiar with the Ehretsmann articles, and it seems many in the forum aren’t either, so perhaps you can be so kind and share them with the forum?

In The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (2012) the author Goran Borčić distinguishes between schiavonas with skeleton and lattice hilt baskets which makes sense. He mentions the oldest known record of the spada schiavonesca in a testament from Dubrovnik (Ragusa) dating from 1391.

Citing a number of sources including Marija Sercer (Macevi schiavone Povijesnog muzeja Hrvatske, 1972), A. Cimarelli (Armi Bianche, 1969), Heribert Seitz (1965), etc he provides approximate dating for schiavona swords. The earliest skeleton hilt swords are from 1H to mid 16thC, those with heartshaped sidebars dating from 1600-1640, and the ones with more decorated sidebars from 17th-18thC. The lattice hilt schiavonas date from as early as 2H 16thC with single layer side bar items from 1H 17thC (more decorative ones 17thC to beginning 18thC), double layer side bars from 17thC, and triple layer side bars versions from 17th-18thC. It seems schiavona swords continued in use by city guards on the Dalmatian coast into the 19thC. I think dating the swords is difficult in that they each seem quite unique (not standardised or regulation issue), and Ewart Oakeshott in his book European Weapons and Armour suggests different styles may have been in use concurrently.

[Victrix]

Found a link to the book by Marija Sercer but it’s in Serbo-Croat and not many pictures unfortunately: https://www.hismus.hr/media/document...oževi.pdf Needs lots of use of Dr. “Google” translation to get much useful info out of it But the author seems to have been a scholarly lady, the more so given that the book was published during the communist time of Yugoslavia.

[Cathey]

Thankyou Victrix,

Here is the link to the Ehretsmann article, its in French so I have had to use Google translate which given this is an old photocopy is less than successful

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JfB...usp=share_link

Thankyou also for the link to the book by Marija Sercer, I think this will be most useful. I agree dating can only indicative as there does appear to be cross over between the variations and of course if we take blades into account, it becomes even more murky. Based on what I have found thus far I think the chart will be helpful if only as an order to address these in based on hilt complexity. I have Oakeshott as well which I do tend to rely on and a number of other references in other languages.

I am hoping some more recent papers might surface like the book by Marija that I have certainly never seen before. I think I prefer the term Lattice to fishnet when it comes to the latter hilts.

I just find the Schiavone so interesting because of the number of variations.


Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

Many thanks for the link to the French article, Cathey. It looks very good.

I can recommend The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić which I picked up by chance when on vacation in Split. It has text on arms and armour in both Croatian and English, but the item descriptions at the end are in Croatian only although detailed with beautiful pictures. It also has sections on local yatagans, polearms, firearms, etc. See picture below for an example of a skeleton schiavona with decorated sidebars which he dates to 17-18thC. It seems the more plain the schiavonas the older they tend to be. The book is quite big and heavy so will cost a bit to send by post.

I wish all forum members a Happy New Year 2023!

[Cathey]

Hi Victrix

I have tried to find a copy of The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić , but it does not appear to be available anywhere. Would you be able to scan the pages relating to Schiavona’s for me?

I have also found some additional material by searching for the word Schiavona sword in Italian and French, and I am now able to start pulling my source material together.

I agree with your observations the more complex the hilt the newer the sword.

Attached is my oldest Schiavona which is has no lattice work and limited bars. I refer to this one as the second pattern and it dates from 1580 to around 1600.

Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Victrix

I have tried to find a copy of The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić , but it does not appear to be available anywhere. Would you be able to scan the pages relating to Schiavona’s for me?

I have also found some additional material by searching for the word Schiavona sword in Italian and French, and I am now able to start pulling my source material together.

I agree with your observations the more complex the hilt the newer the sword.

Attached is my oldest Schiavona which is has no lattice work and limited bars. I refer to this one as the second pattern and it dates from 1580 to around 1600.

Cheers Cathey

That’s a fabulous sword, Cathey! I think the plain iron pommels are also an indication of age. It seems the bronze ones with relief patterns and “cat’s ears” came later.

As I mentioned earlier, I obtained my copy of “The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum” (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić by chance when visiting the City of Split Museum on vacation (highly recommended!). Roman Emperor Diocletian retired to Split where he built a walled palace for himself. The old town of Split is built into the ruins of this palace and you can stay in hotels within the ancient palace walls. You could try to contact the museum to see if they still have copies of this publication for sale: https://www.mgs.hr/ and email muzej.grada.splita@mgst.net. Bear in mind that this is a substantial coffee table book and postage fees will likely be substantial. See some photos enclosed on the section covering schiavonas.

[urbanspaceman]

Probably my favourite sword and one I have yet to acquire.
Here are two examples purely for entertainment.
The first one (lattice basket) was auctioned by Czerny last year but was too expensive for my wallet.
The second one is still for sale but you would need to re-mortgage your house to afford it.