Bali keris advice and thoughts

[David]

Ooh, that's interesting. I'm not sure i have seen exactly this dhapur before either. In Javanese terminology it would fall into the Kebo/Mahesa group, but frankly i am uncertainly if such a designation has the same meanings in Bali as it does in Jawa. Perhaps somebody else knows.
The luk at the end is of course similar to damar murub in Javanese parlance, but again, i am not sure how such a feature is seen on Balinese blades.
I wouldn't necessarily argue with the 19th century attribution. And i have to say that i am really enjoying this blade. Seems like an unusual dhapur with nicely controlled pamor and form. Wouldn't mind it at all in my own collection.

[A. G. Maisey]

Balinese keris with this exaggerated curl from the gonjo were supposedly worn by priests & religious scholars in Bali. This example of Sid's is a fairly mild curl, compared with some i have seen.

The gonjo on the keris shown here is a replacement, it might be legitimate, that is, it might have been placed upon the keris when the owner of the keris rose in status.

However, during the 1980's & 1990's there was a very well known m'ranggi & dealer in keris who lived in Celuk, and he had had a number of keris made in Madura that were fitted with this style of gonjo. Some of the keris he had for sale were new creations, some were older keris that had been altered, all were keris of rare, unusual or inventive forms.

I visited this gentleman a number of times, usually just to look at what he had, I found him far too expensive to deal with, and around 1990, maybe 1988, maybe 1992 or thereabouts, he had a large number of keris like this hanging from the fascia of a pendopo in his courtyard.

Sid's posted example might be real, it might be something from Celuk of 30 years ago, I certainly cannot tell from the photos, and I might not be able to tell even if I had it in my hand.

The Old Pirate was a master of his trade.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by David

Ooh, that's interesting. I'm not sure i have seen exactly this dhapur before either. In Javanese terminology it would fall into the Kebo/Mahesa group, but frankly i am uncertainly if such a designation has the same meanings in Bali as it does in Jawa. Perhaps somebody else knows.
The luk at the end is of course similar to damar murub in Javanese parlance, but again, i am not sure how such a feature is seen on Balinese blades.
I wouldn't necessarily argue with the 19th century attribution. And i have to say that i am really enjoying this blade. Seems like an unusual dhapur with nicely controlled pamor and form. Wouldn't mind it at all in my own collection.

Maybe I am wrong but I could not understand the pamor color of this bilah, it does not seems to be like traditional old Balinese keris pamor. A close associate friend of mine told me usually Madura keris pamor is this kind of color tone.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Maybe I am wrong but I could not understand the pamor color of this bilah, it does not seems to be like traditional old Balinese keris pamor. A close associate friend of mine told me usually Madura keris pamor is this kind of color tone.

Not to mention that the wilah has a coarse surface which I would not expect from a Bali or Lombok keris.
Yet the gonjo is of a smoother finish.

[SidJ]

Might be Lombok as I have one attributed to there that has a similar surface texture? If the intent was to deceive I dont know how the maker could have ignored the texture and pamor points as a reasonable novice would be aware of this. The smooth ganja and large size is a clear Bali feature.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sid, not everything is as cut & dried as we might like to believe.

This is a very unusual form of keris, no matter where it comes from.

The gonjo is a replacement.

Keris like this were produced to order for a Balinese dealer 30 & more years ago.

I do not know if this keris was constructed for somebody in a Balinese community or somebody in the collector community

Anything else that we might like to think or say about this keris is guesswork.

[SidJ]

Looks like its all guesswork to me Alan. Is this keris 30 years old? Is this keris part of the batch you refer to? Did that maker couple a smooth ganja with a rough textured Javanese type blade to add interest? Why not add a scabbard to add value? Why are there not more of these recent types not seen in the meaketplace? After 30 odd years one could reasonably expect this. Or is this on the balance of probabilities exactly what it is stated as namely a 19th century antique with unique features? What is more likely on the facts? That is the question.

[David]

Well Sid, all your questions are valid as well as the questioned raised by those who commented.
When i made my original remarks i was viewing this on the small screen of my cellphone. On my computer now i can see why certain aspects of this blade have raised a red flag or two. As Alan pointed out, it is clear looking at this on a larger screen that the gonjo is a replacement. Exactly when that happened is impossible to tell and as Alan pointed out, such a later addition can indeed be legitimate. I can also see why Anthony is questioning the pamor if this blade originated in Bali. Is Lombok a possible alternative? Possibly. If i am not mistaken Lombok keris ventured into more unusual dhapurs than those made in Bali.
This said i would say i still like this keris. I also still feel the pamor is fairly well controlled and the keris is an attractive one. So the question for you is do you still like the keris and find to attractive even if the origins of this blade might be as Alan described? Alan's experience with similar keris does seem to answer some of the questions this unusual blade brings up. But there are also many oddities that pop up in the keris world that are simply legitimate oddballs. When we are presented with a keris like this we need to weigh all the possibilities and come to our own conclusions which we may never be able to confirm or prove wrong. So in the end we just have to decide if it is something we truly like and if our investment in obtaining the keris was a reasonable one given all the possibilities.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sid, you have asked 8 questions, I will address these questions one by one

1) Is this keris 30 years old?
I do not know, see post #3

2) Is this keris part of the batch you refer to?
I do not know, see post #3

3) Did that maker couple a smooth ganja with a rough textured Javanese type blade to add interest?
I would guess that there was more than a single maker involved in the production of what we can see in your photos. There are a number of reasons why the gonjo has been replaced and it is impossible for me make a reasonable guess on why it has been replaced. See post #3.

4) Why not add a scabbard to add value?
We do not know the history of this keris, I think it would have had a scabbard at one time.

5) Why are there not more of these recent types not seen in the meaketplace?
Because not many more, if any more were made.

6) After 30 odd years one could reasonably expect this.
Not necessarily; we are dealing with a niche market and an ethnographic artefact that in its cultural context has quite specific parameters within which to function. We do not know who it was made for, nor why it was made, we do not know if it is something that was produced to function within a cultural context or if it was produced to function within a context other than its designated cultural context. See post #3.

7) Or is this on the balance of probabilities exactly what it is stated as namely a 19th century antique with unique features?
In my opinion it is not a 19th century antique. The body of the blade (wilahan) might have some age, or it might not, I cannot give a supportable opinion on the basis of a photo. The gonjo is very likely to be much more recent than the wilahan. See post #3

8) What is more likely on the facts?
What facts Sid? I cannot see any facts that I could take into even a lower court and expect somebody with no specialist knowledge to agree with. If I were to be granted the status of "expert witness" I could reasonably expect that some people would accept what I have said, and that others would not.

In summary, it is in my opinion impossible to form and support a firm opinion on the age and reason for being of this keris.