Kaskara?? Expensive to say the least.

Edster · 13th December 2022, 12:00 AM

This is truly a mystery kaskara. The auction pre-bid price is about right for a fine, but not great kaskara. So the seller didn't think it was exceptional, likely unaware of its true provenance. Once seen by the major bidders its significance emerged, and they bid it far beyond even the best Ali Dinar types, the highest in Sudanese origin kaskara quality. What may the inscriptions tell us??

ariel · 13th December 2022, 12:33 AM

Is the potential provenance to Ail Dinar, frankly a minor personality on the world arena of the 20th century sufficient to justify the expense of 130,000 GBP?

Am I missing something?

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2022, 12:59 AM

That was the point I think, the Ali Dinar examples were just significant as a important in post Mahdiyya/ Omdurman Sudan. While relatively unimportant in comparison obviously to the Mahdi and Khaliph, he was quite important in the Sudan, and that's what this is about. Not just the precious metal possibility, but what the inscription says may be the explanation.

TVV · 13th December 2022, 01:08 AM

Until someone is kind enough to let us know what the blade inscription says, we can only speculate.

It takes at least two people to arrive at the hammer price, one of which may have been willing to exceed 100k GBP and another who was willing to pay an amount very close to that. So more than one person saw something very special about this sword and it almost certainly has to do with the blade.

It may be just me being ignorant, but I had not heard about this auction house before. It is not one that seems to specialize in arms and armor. For two major collectors or dealers to find this particular sword, sandwiched between lots of a 20th century military drum and a bottle of Johnny Walker from 2016 and bid it up this high is most unusual.

This all assumes the price displayed is correct.

Tim Simmons · 13th December 2022, 06:29 PM

I am going to sound really ignorant. I feel sure other members may have the same feelings. I have some questions. Why is it that such high status owner or owners accept such crude file work on the blade. Are we saying that prominent people, Sudanese rulers , have less atheistic views than other cultures? Without testing the yellow metal could well be brass . There was a very yellow low tarnish brass forget the name. Just seems odd to me that such crude work is seen as so special. Yes it has quite nice silver on the grip.

Will M · 13th December 2022, 06:58 PM

I would say the yellow inlay is gold. You can see some loss of the inlay, brass would be heated and stick better while gold is hammered in. Brass dulls and this is all bright. Gold has different shades:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_(color)
You can also have gold mixed with other metals. To me one bit looks as if it's peeling up suggesting it is quite soft.
Just an opinion, having it in hand makes discerning it's material more easily.

Tim Simmons · 13th December 2022, 07:35 PM

Hmmm, I think we have seen better quality blades without the inclusion of the suspect yellow metal. Even if , which I doubt it being gold , is it not worth more than a couple of hundred UK £ even at the highest carat. So I still ask why the example is so rough? So special ? The price ? Could be set by, to be nice, people with too much money and not a lot of judgement? Convince me !

Will M · 13th December 2022, 07:55 PM

I can only guess that the original hilt was valuable for its metal content and removed possibly by a soldier, blade being too long to be bothered with and as you say not much gold content. Rehilted using metal plates at the ricasso, most likely the tang or hilt just broken off.
It will remain an enigma until someone reveals the provenance. The rough filing could have happened at anytime, someone not knowing it's value and just interested in cutting with it or??

thinreadline · 23rd December 2022, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Until someone is kind enough to let us know what the blade inscription says, we can only speculate.

It takes at least two people to arrive at the hammer price, one of which may have been willing to exceed 100k GBP and another who was willing to pay an amount very close to that. So more than one person saw something very special about this sword and it almost certainly has to do with the blade.

It may be just me being ignorant, but I had not heard about this auction house before. It is not one that seems to specialize in arms and armor. For two major collectors or dealers to find this particular sword, sandwiched between lots of a 20th century military drum and a bottle of Johnny Walker from 2016 and bid it up this high is most unusual.

This all assumes the price displayed is correct.

Its a fairly minor and non specialist auction house run by Anita Manning who makes regular appearances on British 'popular' TV entertainment antiques programmes such as 'Flog It' and 'Bargain Hunt' .

Norman McCormick · 23rd December 2022, 12:50 PM

Hi,
This auction house as with others has very limited expertise in many areas so it is no surprise that the estimate was 'somewhat inaccurate', certainly not a place I would ever choose to use. Having said that this particular piece has surprised all here so the auction house is somewhat vindicated in this instance.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 3rd January 2023, 05:27 PM

Hi,
It would appear the hammer price is now £54,000, still expensive though. Maybe it will get cheaper still.

Regards,
Norman.

mariusgmioc · 4th January 2023, 10:52 AM

This isn't the first, and definitely won't be the last piece that sells waaay above its estimated money value.

It was so much speculated about its possible mysterious provenance but in the end the explanation for its whooping price can be much simpler and mundane.

There are many hobbyists and collectors that measure their fortunes not in millions, not in tens of millions and not even in hundreds of millions but in billions and even tens and hundreds of billions. For such persons the monetary price of an item has no significance whatsoever since if they want something they can pay no matter what in order to get it, while their overall fortune is not affected at all. It would be like me wanting badly to get an item estimated at 1 cent and ending up paying 5 or 10 dollars.

And this may be the case here.

Of course this is also a speculation like all the others.

4th January 2023, 10:52 AM	#12
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	money-wise This isn't the first, and definitely won't be the last piece that sells waaay above its estimated money value. It was so much speculated about its possible mysterious provenance but in the end the explanation for its whooping price can be much simpler and mundane. There are many hobbyists and collectors that measure their fortunes not in millions, not in tens of millions and not even in hundreds of millions but in billions and even tens and hundreds of billions. For such persons the monetary price of an item has no significance whatsoever since if they want something they can pay no matter what in order to get it, while their overall fortune is not affected at all. It would be like me wanting badly to get an item estimated at 1 cent and ending up paying 5 or 10 dollars. And this may be the case here. Of course this is also a speculation like all the others.

13th December 2022, 12:00 AM	#1
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	This is truly a mystery kaskara. The auction pre-bid price is about right for a fine, but not great kaskara. So the seller didn't think it was exceptional, likely unaware of its true provenance. Once seen by the major bidders its significance emerged, and they bid it far beyond even the best Ali Dinar types, the highest in Sudanese origin kaskara quality. What may the inscriptions tell us??

13th December 2022, 12:33 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Is the potential provenance to Ail Dinar, frankly a minor personality on the world arena of the 20th century sufficient to justify the expense of 130,000 GBP? Am I missing something?

13th December 2022, 12:59 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	That was the point I think, the Ali Dinar examples were just significant as a important in post Mahdiyya/ Omdurman Sudan. While relatively unimportant in comparison obviously to the Mahdi and Khaliph, he was quite important in the Sudan, and that's what this is about. Not just the precious metal possibility, but what the inscription says may be the explanation.

13th December 2022, 01:08 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Until someone is kind enough to let us know what the blade inscription says, we can only speculate. It takes at least two people to arrive at the hammer price, one of which may have been willing to exceed 100k GBP and another who was willing to pay an amount very close to that. So more than one person saw something very special about this sword and it almost certainly has to do with the blade. It may be just me being ignorant, but I had not heard about this auction house before. It is not one that seems to specialize in arms and armor. For two major collectors or dealers to find this particular sword, sandwiched between lots of a 20th century military drum and a bottle of Johnny Walker from 2016 and bid it up this high is most unusual. This all assumes the price displayed is correct.

13th December 2022, 06:29 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	I am going to sound really ignorant. I feel sure other members may have the same feelings. I have some questions. Why is it that such high status owner or owners accept such crude file work on the blade. Are we saying that prominent people, Sudanese rulers , have less atheistic views than other cultures? Without testing the yellow metal could well be brass . There was a very yellow low tarnish brass forget the name. Just seems odd to me that such crude work is seen as so special. Yes it has quite nice silver on the grip.

13th December 2022, 06:58 PM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	I would say the yellow inlay is gold. You can see some loss of the inlay, brass would be heated and stick better while gold is hammered in. Brass dulls and this is all bright. Gold has different shades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_(color) You can also have gold mixed with other metals. To me one bit looks as if it's peeling up suggesting it is quite soft. Just an opinion, having it in hand makes discerning it's material more easily.

13th December 2022, 07:35 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Hmmm, I think we have seen better quality blades without the inclusion of the suspect yellow metal. Even if , which I doubt it being gold , is it not worth more than a couple of hundred UK £ even at the highest carat. So I still ask why the example is so rough? So special ? The price ? Could be set by, to be nice, people with too much money and not a lot of judgement? Convince me !

13th December 2022, 07:55 PM	#8
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	I can only guess that the original hilt was valuable for its metal content and removed possibly by a soldier, blade being too long to be bothered with and as you say not much gold content. Rehilted using metal plates at the ricasso, most likely the tang or hilt just broken off. It will remain an enigma until someone reveals the provenance. The rough filing could have happened at anytime, someone not knowing it's value and just interested in cutting with it or??

23rd December 2022, 12:50 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, This auction house as with others has very limited expertise in many areas so it is no surprise that the estimate was 'somewhat inaccurate', certainly not a place I would ever choose to use. Having said that this particular piece has surprised all here so the auction house is somewhat vindicated in this instance. Regards, Norman.

3rd January 2023, 05:27 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, It would appear the hammer price is now £54,000, still expensive though. Maybe it will get cheaper still. Regards, Norman.