Austrian hussar sabre for ID

corrado26 · 12th December 2022, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

the question is whether it's significant that these notches occur on blades which were used by Austrian cavalry during the time of Prince Eugene of Savoy, or whether this is a mere coincidence. Finally I would be interested to see photos of Prussian, French, or other swords with similar notches on their blades to prove that the practice was not limited to Austria.

Here are fotos of a probably Bavarian husar sabre around 1710 with a blade with two notches

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2022, 05:49 PM

Udo, thank you so much for this! I cannot believe I missed these other most valuable entries bv Victrix and Cel7 et al.....and Wayne, well noted on the Spanish notch.....another anomaly of this genre.

I think the mention of the 'swiping back cut' is a most viable suggestion. In some sword fighting the Italians used a diversionary slashing cut termed 'stramazone', which usually was on the forehead. This resulted of course in bleeding into the eyes and rendering the opponent notably distracted, unable to defend properly.
This seems more viable for such a feature than for dramatic wounding, which would be redundant in a thrust.

The notions of these relatively shallow and small notches for picking up items off the ground or for catching reins seem a bit tenuous and unlikely.

Thanks to JT88 for the Pottenstein detail!

Really sorry guys, not sure what happened, I cant even blame the UFO's

awdaniec666 · 14th January 2024, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Here are fotos of a probably Bavarian husar sabre around 1710...

Corrado, what makes this specimen probably Bavarian? I am curious about the references. Thanks.

corrado26 · 14th January 2024, 03:07 PM

Hilts with these big rivets I only know from Bavarian swords and sabres, so I wrote "probably". See the scans from "Gerd Maier, Bayerische Blankwaffen Teil 1-3"

toaster5sqn · 14th January 2024, 08:16 PM

Just having found this post and read the discussion about the mysterious notches. As a HEMA practioner there is a trick with sabres of snapping a short back edge draw cut at your opponents sword hand or wrist. I'm given to understand it comes from Hungarian sources but can't confirm this as my own study has been focused on British sources.

The point is this is not an effective cut and in no way could it be a fight ending blow, its intent is to injure your opponents hand just enough to give you an advantage going forward and the notch does appear perfect for this technique.

It is also a technique for one on one duels not open battle which may explain why it appears on only some blades, both officer and enlisted. This would suggest that the owner of that particular blade was willing and prepared to fight a duel, or at least wished to appear as such.

The fact that the technique does not appear in the British manuals and that the notches do not appear on British blades may be considered suggestive but hardly constitutes proof.

Robert

corrado26 · 15th January 2024, 02:23 PM

What please is a "HEMA practioner"?

Norman McCormick · 15th January 2024, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

What please is a "HEMA practioner"?

Historical European Martial Arts
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 15th January 2024, 05:03 PM

Robert, this is in my opinion a brilliant answer to a most obscure question, that is, what in the world were these notches for? which has vexed me for over two decades. As discussed through this thread it seems the most notable presence of this notch at the back of the blade near the tip was on Austrian swords (Wagner, Prague,1967) as shown in as many as 6 or 8 swords (cannot recall offhand).

As these were drawings, I could not fathom why an artist would include such a feature unless it was deliberately placed in the place, and not some random damage as suggested to me by some who I queried. I did confirm with the museums where the actual examples drawn by Wagner were held, and these swords did indeed have the 'notch'.

In fencing, as you certainly know, in fencing, that is combat or duel oriented, the element of distraction by inflicting a wound was of course practiced in various instances. Bear with me as I try to recall...in Italy(originally) the 'stramazone' was a slashing cut swept across the face, especially forehead,causing of course heavy bleeding.

In Scotland, the placement of extended wrist guards on basket hilts was to protect from the wrist cut.

It makes perfect sense that a small notch creating a sharp barb would be remarkably effective for such a typically unexpected backhand move contrary to the expected passes and parries.
In the 'Spanish fight' (destreza) Spaniards used unexpected moves like this with blows to the head or face creating the same distractive result.

This is the first entirely reasonable explanation that seems to make perfect sense. The notions of this inconsequential notch to pick up objects off the ground or to worsen the wound in a thrust both seem patent nonsense but understandably suggested when trying to find a pragmatic solution.

Like many things in actual practice, especially with dueling, which was typically a situation which was formally forbidden, outlawed etc. and with many combat oriented conventions, these would not, understandably, be well documented, if at all.

corrado26 · 15th January 2024, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Historical European Martial Arts
Regards,
Norman.

Thank you!!

awdaniec666 · 16th January 2024, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Hilts with these big rivets I only know from Bavarian swords and sabres, so I wrote "probably". See the scans from "Gerd Maier, Bayerische Blankwaffen Teil 1-3"

Thanks a lot!

Quote:

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

It is also a technique for one on one duels ...

While I´m a big enthusiast of bringing in HEMA experience into arms and armour studies, one must recognize that fighting on horseback and cavalry maneuvers in general have nothing to do with fencing (when defined as one vs one on ground). This is why I think the notches have a more "practical/tool-like" context. But hey - who knows!

14th January 2024, 03:07 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	Hilts with these big rivets I only know from Bavarian swords and sabres, so I wrote "probably". See the scans from "Gerd Maier, Bayerische Blankwaffen Teil 1-3" Attached Images

12th December 2022, 05:49 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Udo, thank you so much for this! I cannot believe I missed these other most valuable entries bv Victrix and Cel7 et al.....and Wayne, well noted on the Spanish notch.....another anomaly of this genre. I think the mention of the 'swiping back cut' is a most viable suggestion. In some sword fighting the Italians used a diversionary slashing cut termed 'stramazone', which usually was on the forehead. This resulted of course in bleeding into the eyes and rendering the opponent notably distracted, unable to defend properly. This seems more viable for such a feature than for dramatic wounding, which would be redundant in a thrust. The notions of these relatively shallow and small notches for picking up items off the ground or for catching reins seem a bit tenuous and unlikely. Thanks to JT88 for the Pottenstein detail! Really sorry guys, not sure what happened, I cant even blame the UFO's

14th January 2024, 08:16 PM	#5
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 75	Just having found this post and read the discussion about the mysterious notches. As a HEMA practioner there is a trick with sabres of snapping a short back edge draw cut at your opponents sword hand or wrist. I'm given to understand it comes from Hungarian sources but can't confirm this as my own study has been focused on British sources. The point is this is not an effective cut and in no way could it be a fight ending blow, its intent is to injure your opponents hand just enough to give you an advantage going forward and the notch does appear perfect for this technique. It is also a technique for one on one duels not open battle which may explain why it appears on only some blades, both officer and enlisted. This would suggest that the owner of that particular blade was willing and prepared to fight a duel, or at least wished to appear as such. The fact that the technique does not appear in the British manuals and that the notches do not appear on British blades may be considered suggestive but hardly constitutes proof. Robert

15th January 2024, 02:23 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	What please is a "HEMA practioner"?

15th January 2024, 05:03 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Robert, this is in my opinion a brilliant answer to a most obscure question, that is, what in the world were these notches for? which has vexed me for over two decades. As discussed through this thread it seems the most notable presence of this notch at the back of the blade near the tip was on Austrian swords (Wagner, Prague,1967) as shown in as many as 6 or 8 swords (cannot recall offhand). As these were drawings, I could not fathom why an artist would include such a feature unless it was deliberately placed in the place, and not some random damage as suggested to me by some who I queried. I did confirm with the museums where the actual examples drawn by Wagner were held, and these swords did indeed have the 'notch'. In fencing, as you certainly know, in fencing, that is combat or duel oriented, the element of distraction by inflicting a wound was of course practiced in various instances. Bear with me as I try to recall...in Italy(originally) the 'stramazone' was a slashing cut swept across the face, especially forehead,causing of course heavy bleeding. In Scotland, the placement of extended wrist guards on basket hilts was to protect from the wrist cut. It makes perfect sense that a small notch creating a sharp barb would be remarkably effective for such a typically unexpected backhand move contrary to the expected passes and parries. In the 'Spanish fight' (destreza) Spaniards used unexpected moves like this with blows to the head or face creating the same distractive result. This is the first entirely reasonable explanation that seems to make perfect sense. The notions of this inconsequential notch to pick up objects off the ground or to worsen the wound in a thrust both seem patent nonsense but understandably suggested when trying to find a pragmatic solution. Like many things in actual practice, especially with dueling, which was typically a situation which was formally forbidden, outlawed etc. and with many combat oriented conventions, these would not, understandably, be well documented, if at all.