THE BORDER REIVERS.

Peter Hudson · 3rd December 2022, 09:10 PM

I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German.

I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start...

A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz,

Colichemarde.
The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade.

Regards, Peter.

urbanspaceman · 3rd December 2022, 09:15 PM

Hey Lee. Can you move this post re- colichemardes to a new thread?
I should not have posted it on Peter's thread.

Peter Hudson · 4th December 2022, 06:49 PM

In tryng to get an angle on the English Army ORBAT ..I refer readers to

http://home.mysoul.com.au/graemecook...06_English.htm

and I QUOTE" CAVALRY ; Early to late 16thC 'Men at Arms' with heavy lance, full armour, and often barded horse, were still used in the first half of the century, but were few in number though of high quality. In 1544 Henry VIII had his 75 'Gentlemen Pensioners' or household cavalry, and 12t 'men-at-arms'. Individual noblemen would also serve in full plate. Appearance of such troops would be much the same in any nation, though Englishmen might wear rounded Greenwich armour.
Much more numerous were the 'demi-lances', with corselet only, or threequarter armour, open burgonet, and unbarded horse. These men carried a light lance and later pistols as well, and formed the main English cavalry up to the end of the century.
Demi-lances formed about one-fifth of the English cavalry, the remaining four-fifths being the characteristic English light cavalry, referred to variously as 'javelins', 'prickers', 'Northern spears' or 'Border horse'.
They were also armed with light lance and one pistol, sometimes carrying a round or oval shield as well, and wore an open helmet, mail shirt or jack (corselet for the wealthier individuals), leather breeches and boots. Such cavalry were supplied by several English counties, but the best came from the raiders of the Scottish border, who were reputed to spear salmon from the saddle!
Cavalry were always in short supply in English armies; Henry VIII supplemented them with Burgundians and Germans with boar-spear and pistols. In Ireland in the later 16th Century cavalry usually formed about one-eighth of an English army. In Henry's time they were organised in 'bands', cornets, or squadrons of 100 men, later of about 50". UNQUOTE.

Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall · 4th December 2022, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German.

I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start...

A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz,

Colichemarde.
The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade.

Regards, Peter.

Spot on! The term 'colichemarde' term is entirely with respect to the blade, as the hilt forms are the same as on the small swords of the period. The term is apocryphal but the alignment with the cognate Konigsmark seems reasonable enough. His reputation as a duelist was likely the choice to term the blade form.

urbanspaceman · 5th December 2022, 09:09 PM

Graf von Königsmark: a German family who fought for the Swedish.

Koningsberg is a town in Russia.

Did Sir William Hope get the name wrong?

urbanspaceman · 5th December 2022, 09:12 PM

Peter, this stuff is fantastic... thank-you.

Peter Hudson · 6th December 2022, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Graf von Königsmark: a German family who fought for the Swedish.

Koningsberg is a town in Russia.

Did Sir William Hope get the name wrong?

''
Keith,
I am not sure... It is a bit unclear ...see https://military-history.fandom.com/...#Brief_history...which is also unclear...Peter

Peter Hudson · 6th December 2022, 03:44 PM

The muddle is best seen at https://core.ac.uk/reader/161102560

while the full story is worth looking at...even if the mathematics are a puzzle...The familytree does however seem to be pointing at Karl Johan as the more likely root of this swords start point...

Peter Hudson.

3rd December 2022, 09:10 PM	#1
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German. I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start... A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz, Colichemarde. The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade. Regards, Peter. Last edited by Peter Hudson; 3rd December 2022 at 09:21 PM.

3rd December 2022, 09:15 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	hi-jack Hey Lee. Can you move this post re- colichemardes to a new thread? I should not have posted it on Peter's thread.

5th December 2022, 09:09 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	confusion over names Graf von Königsmark: a German family who fought for the Swedish. Koningsberg is a town in Russia. Did Sir William Hope get the name wrong?

5th December 2022, 09:12 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Reivers Peter, this stuff is fantastic... thank-you.

4th December 2022, 06:49 PM	#3
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	In tryng to get an angle on the English Army ORBAT ..I refer readers to http://home.mysoul.com.au/graemecook...06_English.htm and I QUOTE" CAVALRY ; Early to late 16thC 'Men at Arms' with heavy lance, full armour, and often barded horse, were still used in the first half of the century, but were few in number though of high quality. In 1544 Henry VIII had his 75 'Gentlemen Pensioners' or household cavalry, and 12t 'men-at-arms'. Individual noblemen would also serve in full plate. Appearance of such troops would be much the same in any nation, though Englishmen might wear rounded Greenwich armour. Much more numerous were the 'demi-lances', with corselet only, or threequarter armour, open burgonet, and unbarded horse. These men carried a light lance and later pistols as well, and formed the main English cavalry up to the end of the century. Demi-lances formed about one-fifth of the English cavalry, the remaining four-fifths being the characteristic English light cavalry, referred to variously as 'javelins', 'prickers', 'Northern spears' or 'Border horse'. They were also armed with light lance and one pistol, sometimes carrying a round or oval shield as well, and wore an open helmet, mail shirt or jack (corselet for the wealthier individuals), leather breeches and boots. Such cavalry were supplied by several English counties, but the best came from the raiders of the Scottish border, who were reputed to spear salmon from the saddle! Cavalry were always in short supply in English armies; Henry VIII supplemented them with Burgundians and Germans with boar-spear and pistols. In Ireland in the later 16th Century cavalry usually formed about one-eighth of an English army. In Henry's time they were organised in 'bands', cornets, or squadrons of 100 men, later of about 50". UNQUOTE. Peter Hudson.

6th December 2022, 03:44 PM	#8
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	The muddle is best seen at https://core.ac.uk/reader/161102560 while the full story is worth looking at...even if the mathematics are a puzzle...The familytree does however seem to be pointing at Karl Johan as the more likely root of this swords start point... Peter Hudson.