Two Kilij for comments

[werecow]

Like I said I'm somewhat of a novice but as far as I understand it a kilij is just a general Ottoman single edged, curved cutting sabre and the pala is a subset of that which refers to the highly specialized, relatively short 18th-19th century form with the T-section blade and raised yelman that is specialized for slicing (draw cuts), rather than chopping.

EDIT: And just to add, regardless of whether my example is old or not, it is one of my favorite swords to hold. It's both super light and due to the POB it still feels like it could cut like a beast if I sharpened it even slightly. Also edge alignment is trivial with that curve and grip, and the sound is fun.

EDIT 2: Mine is about 2-3mm wide (no significant distal taper that I can detect with my €2 calipers - while quasi inebriated because it's Friday), with the T-section being about 6-7mm.

[ASPaulding]

Just found somebody engraved intials on the larger one.

[ariel]

There is a date within the cartouch: 1264 H. It corresponds to 1877-8 Gregorian.
Simple fighting Kilijes ( Palas) from the last years of the Ottoman Empire.
Very nice set.

[werecow]

Is there any significance to the substantial difference in the two blades? i.e. is the larger one a cavalry example, or just an earlier development perhaps?

[ariel]

The small (77 cm) Pala is interesting. It has an inscription in Russian that was severely damaged by polishing and I can recognize only letters, but not words.
The reverse (?) has an Orthodox cross and also damaged dates. I think I can make sense out of it, however: 1877-1878. These are the dates of the penultimate Russian-Turkish War, a Caucasian one. Russia won and received Kars and Ardahan. The last one was WWI if one discounts recent skirmishes in Libya and Syria. Obviously, this one was made after the war, likely as a souvenir.
The greatest (IMHO) consequence of 1877-78 war was the acquaintance of the Russians with rotating vertical grill of thin cuts of lamb that now we know as Gyro ( Greek) or Shwarma ( Arabic). The Russians called it Shashlik a la Kars and it was considered by them an exotic delicacy. Now it is a street food all over the Middle East. Regretfully, many places use cheap turkey meat.

[Drabant1701]

As mentioned earlier both are good old swords, as someone said most likely 19th century. I really like the smaller one, good untouched condition. I would call both Pala swords. I have one myself that is abot 85cm and 1100 grams. The smaller of yours seem very light and short, could it be for a child or youngster?

As someone mentioned in earlier post the smaller one may well be sham wootz, but I have seen exampes with twist core pattern welded as well.

[ASPaulding]

Thank you all for your feedback. The only question I have is about the grip material? And on the scabbord, what are the little springs and what is the purpose? Thanks

[werecow]

The "springs" are a typical Ottoman scabbard stitch. From SBG forum:

That scabbard stitching thing: It used to be called ,, Türkenleiter '' in old German language texts.
Think I found the term on an Austrian site dealing with old Austrian texts.
Which makes sense as they had to deal with Ottoman Turks quite a lot.
The term was explained as: Turkish Ladder, referring to a ladder to Heaven (or Hell, depending on where one stands in a conflict),
The spokes of said ladder are the stitches, guiding the souls of fallen Turks to the ,,Other Side''.
It is not known (I think at this point) where the term originated, on the Christian side or the Turkish.
It can be seen on many a French (private order) scabbard dating from after the Napoleonic adventure in Egypt, but also here and there on German and British scabbards from that period and later. Never cought on as a wide spread fashion though, more like an extra.

and

So according to Osman, who also asked a historian friend of his because he wanted to be sure about a couple things (the names of the symbols as well in the koftgiri) the Ottomans had no specific name for the style, but it was not adopted until the 1790's and only continued until the early 19th century and was a quite rare style reserved for the highest quality scabbards. Interesting that the French and Germans would adopt it in a limited fashion, Ottoman fashion seemed to have a huge effect on the West whenever encountered, I'm sure it was considered exotic.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by ASPaulding

Thank you all for your feedback. The only question I have is about the grip material? And on the scabbord, what are the little springs and what is the purpose? Thanks

That scabard and kilij look like bosnian made, that sthitching is called turkish zipper, i never hear of ladders?
But have in mind that turkish zipper or what ever is modern name, in old books i neber came acros some name for that stitching, it iis just that a stitching.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by ariel

The small (77 cm) Pala is interesting. It has an inscription in Russian that was severely damaged by polishing and I can recognize only letters, but not words.
The reverse (?) has an Orthodox cross and also damaged dates. I think I can make sense out of it, however: 1877-1878. These are the dates of the penultimate Russian-Turkish War, a Caucasian one. Russia won and received Kars and Ardahan. The last one was WWI if one discounts recent skirmishes in Libya and Syria. Obviously, this one was made after the war, likely as a souvenir.
The greatest (IMHO) consequence of 1877-78 war was the acquaintance of the Russians with rotating vertical grill of thin cuts of lamb that now we know as Gyro ( Greek) or Shwarma ( Arabic). The Russians called it Shashlik a la Kars and it was considered by them an exotic delicacy. Now it is a street food all over the Middle East. Regretfully, many places use cheap turkey meat.

Interesting. You are definitely correct about 1877-1878. As for the other inscription, I can't make heads or tails of the top line atm, but I think the bottom line is "война 1877" (which google translate tells me means "war 1877").

[ariel]

Originally Posted by werecow

Interesting. You are definitely correct about 1877-1878. As for the other inscription, I can't make heads or tails of the top line atm, but I think the bottom line is "война 1877" (which google translate tells me means "war 1877").

You are correct: "war".
With your clue I seem to be able to read a part of the upper line: "А?типов турец[кий] ?" , ie. name ("A?tipov tur [ kish?]").

[ASPaulding]

I really wish I could help you with your sword. I have found a few that resemble it. Some from when Bulgaria was part of the ottoman empire and a couple from Russia. Hopefully somebody else may have some input.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by ariel

You are correct: "war".
With your clue I seem to be able to read a part of the upper line: "А?типов турец[кий] ?" , ie. name ("A?tipov tur [ kish?]").

I think you're right about турец[кий] but I think the first word is different. I've taken another picture with slightly different lighting, maybe that helps? If not I might try doing a rubbing of it one of these days.

Maybe it starts with "ЗА" (FOR or PER according to google)? And I can see the remains of the rest of the date as an 8 at the end of the bottom row.

Originally Posted by ASPaulding

I really wish I could help you with your sword. I have found a few that resemble it. Some from when Bulgaria was part of the ottoman empire and a couple from Russia.

That is interesting in itself, as I haven't really seen anything very similar in the (admittedly brief) time I've been collecting. Do these have kilij blades? If you have pictures or links I'd appreciate it.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by ariel

There is a date within the cartouch: 1264 H. It corresponds to 1877-8 Gregorian.
Simple fighting Kilijes ( Palas) from the last years of the Ottoman Empire.
Very nice set.

The Ottoman (Turkish) Empire lasted thru WW1, until 1922, the 'last years' are still fairly recent .