Two Kilij for comments

ASPaulding · 18th November 2022, 04:40 PM

I honestly don't know what type of blade that is. I wish I could be of more help.

Battara · 18th November 2022, 09:34 PM

I may be wrong but I usually associate a kilij with a thinner blade while the pala is later (19c for example) with a wider blade like the two you show here. None of these are fakes and look honest to me.

The six sided star is the "Seal of Soloman" and is talismanic. The "eyelash" on the other pala I usually associate with Indo-Persian blades.

Regarding the pala with the silver koftgari on it, the blade looks to me to be made of "sham wootz" which is a form of wootz made in Turkey.

As far as the Turkish and Arabic is concerned, I'll let someone else tackle those.

werecow · 19th November 2022, 01:28 AM

Like I said I'm somewhat of a novice but as far as I understand it a kilij is just a general Ottoman single edged, curved cutting sabre and the pala is a subset of that which refers to the highly specialized, relatively short 18th-19th century form with the T-section blade and raised yelman that is specialized for slicing (draw cuts), rather than chopping.

EDIT: And just to add, regardless of whether my example is old or not, it is one of my favorite swords to hold. It's both super light and due to the POB it still feels like it could cut like a beast if I sharpened it even slightly. Also edge alignment is trivial with that curve and grip, and the sound is fun.

EDIT 2: Mine is about 2-3mm wide (no significant distal taper that I can detect with my €2 calipers - while quasi inebriated because it's Friday), with the T-section being about 6-7mm.

ASPaulding · 19th November 2022, 03:21 AM

Just found somebody engraved intials on the larger one.

ariel · 19th November 2022, 04:31 AM

There is a date within the cartouch: 1264 H. It corresponds to 1877-8 Gregorian.
Simple fighting Kilijes ( Palas) from the last years of the Ottoman Empire.
Very nice set.

werecow · 19th November 2022, 04:59 AM

Is there any significance to the substantial difference in the two blades? i.e. is the larger one a cavalry example, or just an earlier development perhaps?

ariel · 19th November 2022, 05:02 AM

The small (77 cm) Pala is interesting. It has an inscription in Russian that was severely damaged by polishing and I can recognize only letters, but not words.
The reverse (?) has an Orthodox cross and also damaged dates. I think I can make sense out of it, however: 1877-1878. These are the dates of the penultimate Russian-Turkish War, a Caucasian one. Russia won and received Kars and Ardahan. The last one was WWI if one discounts recent skirmishes in Libya and Syria. Obviously, this one was made after the war, likely as a souvenir.
The greatest (IMHO) consequence of 1877-78 war was the acquaintance of the Russians with rotating vertical grill of thin cuts of lamb that now we know as Gyro ( Greek) or Shwarma ( Arabic). The Russians called it Shashlik a la Kars and it was considered by them an exotic delicacy. Now it is a street food all over the Middle East. Regretfully, many places use cheap turkey meat.

Drabant1701 · 19th November 2022, 01:14 PM

As mentioned earlier both are good old swords, as someone said most likely 19th century. I really like the smaller one, good untouched condition. I would call both Pala swords. I have one myself that is abot 85cm and 1100 grams. The smaller of yours seem very light and short, could it be for a child or youngster?

As someone mentioned in earlier post the smaller one may well be sham wootz, but I have seen exampes with twist core pattern welded as well.

werecow · 19th November 2022, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The small (77 cm) Pala is interesting. It has an inscription in Russian that was severely damaged by polishing and I can recognize only letters, but not words.
The reverse (?) has an Orthodox cross and also damaged dates. I think I can make sense out of it, however: 1877-1878. These are the dates of the penultimate Russian-Turkish War, a Caucasian one. Russia won and received Kars and Ardahan. The last one was WWI if one discounts recent skirmishes in Libya and Syria. Obviously, this one was made after the war, likely as a souvenir.
The greatest (IMHO) consequence of 1877-78 war was the acquaintance of the Russians with rotating vertical grill of thin cuts of lamb that now we know as Gyro ( Greek) or Shwarma ( Arabic). The Russians called it Shashlik a la Kars and it was considered by them an exotic delicacy. Now it is a street food all over the Middle East. Regretfully, many places use cheap turkey meat.

Interesting. You are definitely correct about 1877-1878. As for the other inscription, I can't make heads or tails of the top line atm, but I think the bottom line is "война 1877" (which google translate tells me means "war 1877").

kronckew · 9th June 2025, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

There is a date within the cartouch: 1264 H. It corresponds to 1877-8 Gregorian.
Simple fighting Kilijes ( Palas) from the last years of the Ottoman Empire.
Very nice set.

The Ottoman (Turkish) Empire lasted thru WW1, until 1922, the 'last years' are still fairly recent

.

19th November 2022, 01:28 AM	#3
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 565	Like I said I'm somewhat of a novice but as far as I understand it a kilij is just a general Ottoman single edged, curved cutting sabre and the pala is a subset of that which refers to the highly specialized, relatively short 18th-19th century form with the T-section blade and raised yelman that is specialized for slicing (draw cuts), rather than chopping. EDIT: And just to add, regardless of whether my example is old or not, it is one of my favorite swords to hold. It's both super light and due to the POB it still feels like it could cut like a beast if I sharpened it even slightly. Also edge alignment is trivial with that curve and grip, and the sound is fun. EDIT 2: Mine is about 2-3mm wide (no significant distal taper that I can detect with my €2 calipers - while quasi inebriated because it's Friday), with the T-section being about 6-7mm. Last edited by werecow; 19th November 2022 at 01:40 AM.

19th November 2022, 03:21 AM	#4
ASPaulding Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 84	Just found somebody engraved intials on the larger one. Attached Images

19th November 2022, 04:31 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is a date within the cartouch: 1264 H. It corresponds to 1877-8 Gregorian. Simple fighting Kilijes ( Palas) from the last years of the Ottoman Empire. Very nice set. Last edited by ariel; 20th November 2022 at 12:33 AM.

18th November 2022, 04:40 PM	#1
ASPaulding Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 84	I honestly don't know what type of blade that is. I wish I could be of more help.

18th November 2022, 09:34 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I may be wrong but I usually associate a kilij with a thinner blade while the pala is later (19c for example) with a wider blade like the two you show here. None of these are fakes and look honest to me. The six sided star is the "Seal of Soloman" and is talismanic. The "eyelash" on the other pala I usually associate with Indo-Persian blades. Regarding the pala with the silver koftgari on it, the blade looks to me to be made of "sham wootz" which is a form of wootz made in Turkey. As far as the Turkish and Arabic is concerned, I'll let someone else tackle those.

19th November 2022, 04:59 AM	#6
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 565	Is there any significance to the substantial difference in the two blades? i.e. is the larger one a cavalry example, or just an earlier development perhaps?

19th November 2022, 05:02 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The small (77 cm) Pala is interesting. It has an inscription in Russian that was severely damaged by polishing and I can recognize only letters, but not words. The reverse (?) has an Orthodox cross and also damaged dates. I think I can make sense out of it, however: 1877-1878. These are the dates of the penultimate Russian-Turkish War, a Caucasian one. Russia won and received Kars and Ardahan. The last one was WWI if one discounts recent skirmishes in Libya and Syria. Obviously, this one was made after the war, likely as a souvenir. The greatest (IMHO) consequence of 1877-78 war was the acquaintance of the Russians with rotating vertical grill of thin cuts of lamb that now we know as Gyro ( Greek) or Shwarma ( Arabic). The Russians called it Shashlik a la Kars and it was considered by them an exotic delicacy. Now it is a street food all over the Middle East. Regretfully, many places use cheap turkey meat.

19th November 2022, 01:14 PM	#8
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	As mentioned earlier both are good old swords, as someone said most likely 19th century. I really like the smaller one, good untouched condition. I would call both Pala swords. I have one myself that is abot 85cm and 1100 grams. The smaller of yours seem very light and short, could it be for a child or youngster? As someone mentioned in earlier post the smaller one may well be sham wootz, but I have seen exampes with twist core pattern welded as well.