Two Kilij for comments

[werecow]

Beautiful swords. Interesting that they handle so differently though. It looks like the larger one has a much less pronounced T-section.

A nice Ottoman kilij is at the top of my non-western-European sword wishlist but so far I have not managed to spot one near my price range. One day, though.

In the mean time I have a little (77cm) sword from Georgia with a kilij blade, which I suspect is a fake (picture attached for reference). But either way, it is lovely in the hand even though the balance is almost 20cm from the grip. I lack good scales but it weighs only about 600gr. When I received it it was packaged in styrofoam and the package felt so light compared to what I was expecting that for a second I thought I accidentally bought a miniature or a plastic sword.

Since this is the only kilij-bladed sword I've ever handled, I'm very curious if it resembles the real ones in terms of weight and balance. Can you post some stats on the length, blade thickness, weight and POB of both swords?

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by werecow

Beautiful swords. Interesting that they handle so differently though. It looks like the larger one has a much less pronounced T-section.

A nice Ottoman kilij is at the top of my non-western-European sword wishlist but so far I have not managed to spot one near my price range. One day, though.

In the mean time I have a little (77cm) sword from Georgia with a kilij blade, which I suspect is a fake (picture attached for reference). But either way, it is lovely in the hand even though the balance is almost 20cm from the grip. I lack good scales but it weighs only about 600gr. When I received it it was packaged in styrofoam and the package felt so light compared to what I was expecting that for a second I thought I accidentally bought a miniature or a plastic sword.

Since this is the only kilij-bladed sword I've ever handled, I'm very curious if it resembles the real ones in terms of weight and balance. Can you post some stats on the length, blade thickness, weight and POB of both swords?

I posted photos of the measurements. I have never done point of balance before but I'm assuming use your finger and balance it then measure from the gaurd. So the small one is approximately POB 10cm at 648 grams and the larger one is POB 14.5cm at 1430 grams.

[ASPaulding]

Your Kilij blade does not look like a fake to me.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by ASPaulding

Your Kilij blade does not look like a fake to me.

I'm not entirely sure whether it is, but there are some things about it that give me pause:

First of all, I bought it off of ebay when I first started collecting. I've never found another sword with Georgian mounts with a kilij blade since then, and I've only ever seen swords with grips that look like it on ebay (i.e.: same style of very simple leather grip wrap, same style of crossguard with the same decorations). The crossguard and pommel have a very different surface texture to it than any other sword I own, and it also sounds different if I tap on it with my fingernails (at first I thought it might be made out of something other than steel, but it rusts).
And it has etchings on it on each side that look kind of washed out, but the bluing is still there, which is weird as it wears away easily (as shown by a bit at the start of the yelman in the last picture that I accidentally rubbed away a bit when cleaning off a small red rust spot when I first got it EDIT: Actually, the first pic I posted was the seller's, and it seems that spot was already rubbed away, so maybe I'm mistaken). In other words it looks kind of like the etchings were made to look worn, if that makes sense. And speaking generally I've never seen an pala blade that was blued before (although the naval markings may explain that oddity).

And having looked through Rivkin's Arms and Armor of Caucasus I did not come across anything that looked quite like it.

But I am still a bit of a novice at collecting, so I can't say for sure.

[ASPaulding]

I honestly don't know what type of blade that is. I wish I could be of more help.

[Battara]

I may be wrong but I usually associate a kilij with a thinner blade while the pala is later (19c for example) with a wider blade like the two you show here. None of these are fakes and look honest to me.

The six sided star is the "Seal of Soloman" and is talismanic. The "eyelash" on the other pala I usually associate with Indo-Persian blades.

Regarding the pala with the silver koftgari on it, the blade looks to me to be made of "sham wootz" which is a form of wootz made in Turkey.

As far as the Turkish and Arabic is concerned, I'll let someone else tackle those.

[werecow]

Like I said I'm somewhat of a novice but as far as I understand it a kilij is just a general Ottoman single edged, curved cutting sabre and the pala is a subset of that which refers to the highly specialized, relatively short 18th-19th century form with the T-section blade and raised yelman that is specialized for slicing (draw cuts), rather than chopping.

EDIT: And just to add, regardless of whether my example is old or not, it is one of my favorite swords to hold. It's both super light and due to the POB it still feels like it could cut like a beast if I sharpened it even slightly. Also edge alignment is trivial with that curve and grip, and the sound is fun.

EDIT 2: Mine is about 2-3mm wide (no significant distal taper that I can detect with my €2 calipers - while quasi inebriated because it's Friday), with the T-section being about 6-7mm.

[werecow]

Thanks!

That's quite a substantial weight difference for such similar looking swords. The length difference can't account for all of that so I guess that implies that the longer one is also significantly thicker (aside from the T-section at the back)?

My knowledge is still somewhat lacking but IIRC the earlier ones are generally longer than the more recent ones, so aside from the handling characteristics there may also be an age difference between them.

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by werecow

Thanks!

That's quite a substantial weight difference for such similar looking swords. The length difference can't account for all of that so I guess that implies that the longer one is also significantly thicker (aside from the T-section at the back)?

My knowledge is still somewhat lacking but IIRC the earlier ones are generally longer than the more recent ones, so aside from the handling characteristics there may also be an age difference between them.

Also I believe there is a significant length difference between a Kilij vs Pala Kilij. I have seen a few examples of the Pala versions in the shorter length. I definitely have a lack of knowledge thou.