Omani Sayf/Saif

[Edster]

Well said Jim and informative as well. I think the flexible/bendy blades may have resulted from almost random consequences of the blade making process, i.e. the coming together of good steel, adequate quenching and proper tempering. It is difficult to get all three processes to coming together even most of the time given the simple facilities available to say the smiths in Kassala. I noted an experienced blade maker apparently air quenching a blade and then tempering it in water in a channel iron tray. Certainly not the way it's done on Forged in Fire.

In the "presentation of self" part I wanted to consider the sword as an Object rather than the Subject. As collectors and students of weapons we see the sword as the Subject made & used within an ethnographic context. But in its original context it is a cultural Object. The blade (imported or locally made) is a product that made by a Person, decorated & accessorized by other Persons, selected and used & worn by another Person and perhaps held dear by Others mainly within the initial cultural context. In several forum commentators, including your analysis, we get into the cultural context and this is the frontier of a more complete understanding.

Best,
Ed

[kronckew]

Forged in Fire is an interesting show, but do not think that making blades under time & material constraints to pass their extreme tests and their reasons for rejection has anything to do with reality of sword making.


p.s. - I recall the approach of the Zulus to Rorke's Drift in the film 'Zulu' they beat their shields with their Iklwa hilts and sounded in their hundreds like a train. The Romans did this too, to intimidate their soon-to-be dead victims. When they actually formed up and advanced to the battle, they did it in silence* - even more unnerving.
*- they did of course use trumpet commands, which the men obeyed instantly - in silence.

[Edster]

Yep, both the "reality show" Forged in Fire and the film Zulu are/were scripted and edited productions that sacrifices reality to tell good stories. For me FIF uses the cooking show format to simulate reality. Zulu is a favorite, but I wouldn't have wanted to be one of the "live action" camera or sound men on the battlefield to get an accurate reality.

Best,
Ed

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Edster

Yep, both the "reality show" Forged in Fire and the film Zulu are/were scripted and edited productions that sacrifice reality to tell good stories. For me FIF uses the cooking show format to simulate reality. Zulu is a favourite, but I wouldn't have wanted to be one of the "live action" camera or sound men on the battlefield to get an accurate reality.

Best,
Ed

Zulu numbers in the movie were not very many. They 'augmented' distant hilltop shots by having 2 real Zulus, additionally carrying another 6 cutout cardboard Zulus nailed to a board. I did like the movie 'gladiator' use of the Zulu chant recording just before the Germans attacked in the early battle. Actually, the movie's whole Rourke's Drift layout was not as real, and in the real battle most Zulu were killed at over 300-600 yards. Dead zulus in the movie were resurrected for later shots. There was no drunk preacher or soldier either. I hear the Zulu warriors had a great time making the movie.

[kai]

Hello Ed,

Allow me to go back to your observation:

I think the flexible/bendy blades may have resulted from almost random consequences of the blade making process, i.e. the coming together of good steel, adequate quenching and proper tempering. It is difficult to get all three processes to coming together even most of the time given the simple facilities available to say the smiths in Kassala. I noted an experienced blade maker apparently air quenching a blade and then tempering it in water in a channel iron tray.

Could you please describe in more detail what the process was exactly?

Certainly quenching is generally done with steel even if there are lots of traditional approaches. Tempering is way more difficult to achieve consistent results with and often skipped in many cultures. It certainly can't be done in water - that must have been the quenching.

Quenching in air is only possible with some modern high alloy steels. If there was some time spent between the forge and dipping into the water for tempering, it may have been for de-risking the process and/or not going for maximum hardness. Both can make sense in an artisan setting (and the strategy chosen may be heavily dependent on experience with the specific type of steel available and being worked on). Some steels can be pretty forgiving and reach reasonable hardness with a range of conditions while others need to treated exactly right to obtain any decent quench.

Regards,
Kai

[Edster]

Hello Kai,

My "instantaneous" image of the smith putting the blade in the water tray is an over 30 year old memory. As a "visual thinker" I am confident of what I saw, but the "frames" before and after didn't register, but I just assumed he was doing a part of a heat treat process. I wish I had paid more attention to the entire process or had asked more questions. Not all the swords the group of smiths there were "bendy" and I assumed that the bendy ones were the result an unplanned result of the combination the parent steel and the quench and temper. Sorry I can't really answer your question.

Best,
Ed

[kai]

Hello Ed,

Sorry for my probing - just trying to document observations as much as possible for further research.

My "instantaneous" image of the smith putting the blade in the water tray is an over 30 year old memory. As a "visual thinker" I am confident of what I saw, but the "frames" before and after didn't register, but I just assumed he was doing a part of a heat treat process.

Sure, dipping the blade into the water is the crucial quenching step.

Any tempering step (heating the blade back to low heat - exact temperature and duration are critical and specific for each steel.

I was just wondering about the step before the water quench which you described as "an experienced blade maker apparently air quenching a blade" - just in case you may remember anything on this. No worries if not, I realize it was a long time ago.

Not all the swords the group of smiths there were "bendy" and I assumed that the bendy ones were the result an unplanned result of the combination the parent steel and the quench and temper.

Yes, quite possibly.

Did you get the impression that this was in general more of a hit or miss thing or did certain makers obtain more consistent results than others?

Regards,
Kai