The m1804 British naval cutlass

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These tests I referred to as 'scandals' were brought about when Gill led the outrage vs. German blade makers saying British could produce not only as well, but better. The ongoing row with this led to many issues about the staging of the tests, animosity between the British makers (there were blades from Oley in Newcastle included as well, but this is in other records).
J'.J.Runkel never made blades but imported them from his contacts in Solingen.

I get the impression that you are mixing your history together. The so-called 'Sword Scandals' are a specific event that occurred in the 1880s which Matt Easton describes in the following video:

When 'Made in Germany' Meant Bad!

Essentially cheap mass-produced German swords and bayonets were found to be of unreliable quality resulting in a number of noticeable failures in the field. Hence the 'Scandal'.

The tests you are referring to were initiated by Gill after much lobbying to the Ordnance board (who refused to conduct them as it was a matter for the supply officers) and were finally done for an order placed by the East India Company, were a response to complaints by British Cutlers.

The cutlers were complaining that existing taxes on German blades should be lifted because they were protecting inferior British-produced blades. Gill, seeing that his business was threatened, lobbied that his British-made blades were superior to the German imports, and challenged the Ordnance board to test his claims.

When Gills swords were tested, they were shown to be markedly better than the ones supplied by J J Runkel and Wooley (I have posted the numbers previously). However, the Runkel blades performed much better than the Wooley ones, confirming that, except for Gills blades, the German-made blades were better than those manufactured locally. This is the opposite of what happened with the actual 'Sword Scandals' in the 1880s.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

I get the impression that you are mixing your history together. The so-called 'Sword Scandals' are a specific event that occurred in the 1880s which Matt Easton describes in the following video:

When 'Made in Germany' Meant Bad!

Essentially cheap mass-produced German swords and bayonets were found to be of unreliable quality resulting in a number of noticeable failures in the field. Hence the 'Scandal'.

The tests you are referring to were initiated by Gill after much lobbying to the Ordnance board (who refused to conduct them as it was a matter for the supply officers) and were finally done for an order placed by the East India Company, were a response to complaints by British Cutlers.

The cutlers were complaining that existing taxes on German blades should be lifted because they were protecting inferior British-produced blades. Gill, seeing that his business was threatened, lobbied that his British-made blades were superior to the German imports, and challenged the Ordnance board to test his claims.

When Gills swords were tested, they were shown to be markedly better than the ones supplied by J J Runkel and Wooley (I have posted the numbers previously). However, the Runkel blades performed much better than the Wooley ones, confirming that, except for Gills blades, the German-made blades were better than those manufactured locally. This is the opposite of what happened with the actual 'Sword Scandals' in the 1880s.

I suspected that by using the word SCANDALS, even though I specified 1790s and Thomas Gill, you might have misunderstood what I meant. Indeed the issues with the quality of blades persisted THROUGH the 19th century, and involved pretty much every pattern of sword in one way or another. While these issues (or scandals) prevailed, in the 19th century matters it was not so much on German imports as designs, quality etc.
Matt Easton is an excellent researcher so his coverage on this is great.

The issues brought forth by Thomas Gill were indeed as you describe, but the matters at hand involved in many clandestine dealings and issues which were deemed unsavory, thus considered scandalous. While not specifically labeled by that term in references, the conditions using the term were my own description (though I have seen it used in reference in other sources in the same manner).
So actually I am not confusing history, but used a common term which described the events I referred to, and specified in my comments exactly the period to which it applied. I am sorry you misunderstood, so thank you for clarifying.

Yes, I have had Richard's book since it came out, and his chapters on the Gill's and especially Runkel are brilliant!!! I cannot say enough on the excellence of his research and the thorough coverage. For years, since I first began using Robson (1975) that was my primary resource as in those days I was collecting every British cavalry pattern (took a while but I did it .
Richard's book does not supercede Robson directly, but perfectly augments it, which is why "new perspectives" is included in the title.

Having discussed Gill as one of the apparently numerous makers of the British 1804 pattern cutlasses, in interesting detail, I hope we can see more examples, marked, by other makers of the period. On that note, if these were as suspected, around in some from before the 1804 regulation I wonder if Thomas Gill II might have been involved. It seems in the 1788 period of the 'scandals' his swords were primarily for officers, while those by Wooley were with simple name stamp on back of blade.
It would be most interesting if Thomas Gill II might have made a cutlass prior to his death in 1801.

The others marked Gill (by John) would seem post 1806 or thereabout?

[Jim McDougall]

I just got the Sim Comfort volumes!!! and they are unbelievable!

To answer some of my own questions in first browsing,
it seems the double disc cutlass as a form may well have been created by Thomas Hollier, between 1716-1727 and was around variously through the century. I did find an example by Thomas Gill from 1780-85,
the blade was stamped on face, upper quadrant at forte, Tho. GILL

Thomas Gill was registered c. 1774 as a steel worker toys, files, razord.
About 1783 listed as sword maker, but it is suggested may have done so earlier due to the Revolutionary War.

[M ELEY]

Jim, I hear that Sim Comfort's books are monumental and the photographs like art pieces! I, unfortunately, don't have his two volumes, but hope to get them someday.

So, we've got the classic m1804s from the period 1804/5-1815, with the GR marking either scripted (early issuance?) or block letter, indicating officially government-used, we have many with the makers of the period without the GR stamp (of the period, but made for the private market, but only for British privates/frigates? Or for Britain's allies of Sweden, Portugal, etc?). We have the models with just the crown, which were made for the Swedes (the question here was when? Some say as the wars were going on. Others say they weren't issued until nearly the 1830's?). Finally, we have the completely unmarked examples that might or might not be in the 1805-15 timeline. Still so many questions...

To add to the puzzle, many of the original ordnance of the early period would have been re-issued out at later periods. Maritime weapons were, above all other military force weapons, reused well past the days of Figting Sail. Gilkerson notes well that boarding pikes from 1812 had new hafts made with reused pike heads and these stayed on some ships up until WWI!! Cutlasses likewise remained on the private fleets into the era of the China Clippers. The reason for their continued use was they were second to none in the prevention in boarding. Many of the mid to late 19th century watercraft that were sailing through the South China Sea, off the Philippines, near Borneo or the Aceh peninsula had much to worry about with pirates. Likewise, some of the ethnographic tribes in the Solomons and places like the Kingsmill Islands (for example) were not always friendly to European visitors. Thus, we have another colorful and exciting period for these antiquated weapons.