Omani Sayf/Saif

kronckew · 7th November 2022, 05:09 PM

Form usually follows function, guardless swords like these and the Caucasian shashqa are not inteded for a combat style that requires integral hand protection.

Jim McDougall · 7th November 2022, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Form usually follows function, guardless swords like these and the Caucasian shashqa are not inteded for a combat style that requires integral hand protection.

well noted, in combative situation most of these ethnographic forms were not wielded blade to blade as in European swordplay, parrying is done with a shield when done at all. The shashka was of course a slashing saber using 'draw cut' from moving horse.
Perhaps this non parrying criteria was what brought the disdain of Burton, a master fencer, who described the leaping to avert cuts etc. derisively. This of course suggests description of the dance performances.

With the images of Tipu Tip and other Omani's in his entourage having these conical hilt swords, it does not seem these warriors would be carrying dance swords when marching into battle. So I still wonder how they were able to vibrate these fighting blades into audible sound as often described. I hope that the experts might explain this as I am not familiar enough with the physical handling of swords in these ways.

Edster · 7th November 2022, 07:18 PM

Jim,

So I still wonder how they were able to vibrate these fighting blades into audible sound as often described. I hope that the experts might explain this as I am not familiar enough with the physical handling of swords in these ways.[/QUOTE]

I'm certainly not an expert, but I do have first hand experience that may be relevant. The sword makers of Kassala (1985) noted the flexing and vibration of certain kaskara when using a snap of the wrist. I later assumed that the blade was forged from high-end spring steel (lorry springs?) that would yield good bending. In fact they noted and demonstrated sword bending almost 90 degrees without taking a set.

A further note likely off-topic, but I just wanted to contribute a not necessarily original observation. The sword in total was a tangible element of dress and a "presentation of self". It seems to me that a blade was "selected" primarily to do the work as a tool, either in war/personal protection or ritual like dancing. European makers marks or those locally applied indicate quality. Script animals like a lion or snake evokes magic for protection.

The grip and scabbard either was left in utility mode of the lower classes or soldiers, but was of an ethnographic style. The style said to others "I am a member of this group". "Gentlemen" and others of higher class/status embellished the ethnic style grip & scabbard to demonstrate their place in society. The blade would usually be of top quality even though they often commanded others to do their fighting.

Think of the gentleman's attire as like a Texas BBQ Pistol. It would be of top quality designed to go armed (manly presentation) and show off among one's peers at a social get-together.

Best,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 8th November 2022, 10:35 PM

Beautifully explained Ed, as always.
From what I know of swords, flexibility in blades has its degree of importance, and of course a well known display of high quality was in being able to bend the blade into a deep curve and have it return true at release of tension.

However, this was not the case in all blades as might be expected, and clearly their intended manner of use would be the key factor in its acceptability.

Well described on the dress of the sword, and its image as an accoutrement of status, office and wealth in with the wearer (great analogy of the Texas BBQ pistol!!!

). While these often notably decorated examples were worn by these figures as the dynastic symbol of the regime and personal augmentation, they were with notably sound trade blades as a rule.

In my opinion, the blade shown here in the OP while simple, seems to have a version of the Passau/Solingen running wolf, which may well be the mark as used on Caucasian blades. These 'wolf marks (ters maymal) are more an interpretation of the well known Solingen variations of these, and it is known that Caucasian blades were much favored in Arab trade.
This blade would be considered prestigious and regarded as well placed in a weapon of status.

We cannot say these long conical hilted sayf were not used in combat as required, it would be difficult to assert that, and they may have been in some degree. What is suggested is that these were not intended as a battle weapon specifically to arm a warrior in battle conditions. With the prevalent use of firearms of course, it was not a primary weapon in any case.

The main contention is that the very light, highly flexible blades which seem to have been made expressly for simple versions of these type swords used in the dancing were not used in combative situations. This is of course quite separate from those made with sturdy trade blades for the prestigious swords worn by Omani gentlemen.

It does not seem that the disparity between these two separate types of these Omani long swords should be such a point of contention.

Edster · 8th November 2022, 11:18 PM

Well said Jim and informative as well. I think the flexible/bendy blades may have resulted from almost random consequences of the blade making process, i.e. the coming together of good steel, adequate quenching and proper tempering. It is difficult to get all three processes to coming together even most of the time given the simple facilities available to say the smiths in Kassala. I noted an experienced blade maker apparently air quenching a blade and then tempering it in water in a channel iron tray. Certainly not the way it's done on Forged in Fire.

In the "presentation of self" part I wanted to consider the sword as an Object rather than the Subject. As collectors and students of weapons we see the sword as the Subject made & used within an ethnographic context. But in its original context it is a cultural Object. The blade (imported or locally made) is a product that made by a Person, decorated & accessorized by other Persons, selected and used & worn by another Person and perhaps held dear by Others mainly within the initial cultural context. In several forum commentators, including your analysis, we get into the cultural context and this is the frontier of a more complete understanding.

Best,
Ed

kronckew · 15th November 2022, 07:55 PM

Forged in Fire is an interesting show, but do not think that making blades under time & material constraints to pass their extreme tests and their reasons for rejection has anything to do with reality of sword making.

p.s. - I recall the approach of the Zulus to Rorke's Drift in the film 'Zulu' they beat their shields with their Iklwa hilts and sounded in their hundreds like a train. The Romans did this too, to intimidate their soon-to-be dead victims. When they actually formed up and advanced to the battle, they did it in silence* - even more unnerving.
*- they did of course use trumpet commands, which the men obeyed instantly - in silence.

Edster · 15th November 2022, 09:13 PM

Yep, both the "reality show" Forged in Fire and the film Zulu are/were scripted and edited productions that sacrifices reality to tell good stories. For me FIF uses the cooking show format to simulate reality. Zulu is a favorite, but I wouldn't have wanted to be one of the "live action" camera or sound men on the battlefield to get an accurate reality.

Best,
Ed

Jerseyman · 7th November 2022, 06:35 PM

Certainly no need to apologise. I'm delighted to have sparked a continuation of a conversation which I have read over a number of times and have had a continuing fascination for. I'm also pleased to see reference to a number of weapons which I also have representative examples in my collection, such as the seme, and particularly the sword from Sierra Leone, which until now I had failed to identify. The historical references cited are of great interest and I hope others may be found to broaden the knowledge base. Thanks to all who've contributed.

7th November 2022, 05:09 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Form usually follows function, guardless swords like these and the Caucasian shashqa are not inteded for a combat style that requires integral hand protection.

7th November 2022, 07:18 PM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Jim, So I still wonder how they were able to vibrate these fighting blades into audible sound as often described. I hope that the experts might explain this as I am not familiar enough with the physical handling of swords in these ways.[/QUOTE] I'm certainly not an expert, but I do have first hand experience that may be relevant. The sword makers of Kassala (1985) noted the flexing and vibration of certain kaskara when using a snap of the wrist. I later assumed that the blade was forged from high-end spring steel (lorry springs?) that would yield good bending. In fact they noted and demonstrated sword bending almost 90 degrees without taking a set. A further note likely off-topic, but I just wanted to contribute a not necessarily original observation. The sword in total was a tangible element of dress and a "presentation of self". It seems to me that a blade was "selected" primarily to do the work as a tool, either in war/personal protection or ritual like dancing. European makers marks or those locally applied indicate quality. Script animals like a lion or snake evokes magic for protection. The grip and scabbard either was left in utility mode of the lower classes or soldiers, but was of an ethnographic style. The style said to others "I am a member of this group". "Gentlemen" and others of higher class/status embellished the ethnic style grip & scabbard to demonstrate their place in society. The blade would usually be of top quality even though they often commanded others to do their fighting. Think of the gentleman's attire as like a Texas BBQ Pistol. It would be of top quality designed to go armed (manly presentation) and show off among one's peers at a social get-together. Best, Ed

8th November 2022, 10:35 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Beautifully explained Ed, as always. From what I know of swords, flexibility in blades has its degree of importance, and of course a well known display of high quality was in being able to bend the blade into a deep curve and have it return true at release of tension. However, this was not the case in all blades as might be expected, and clearly their intended manner of use would be the key factor in its acceptability. Well described on the dress of the sword, and its image as an accoutrement of status, office and wealth in with the wearer (great analogy of the Texas BBQ pistol!!! ). While these often notably decorated examples were worn by these figures as the dynastic symbol of the regime and personal augmentation, they were with notably sound trade blades as a rule. In my opinion, the blade shown here in the OP while simple, seems to have a version of the Passau/Solingen running wolf, which may well be the mark as used on Caucasian blades. These 'wolf marks (ters maymal) are more an interpretation of the well known Solingen variations of these, and it is known that Caucasian blades were much favored in Arab trade. This blade would be considered prestigious and regarded as well placed in a weapon of status. We cannot say these long conical hilted sayf were not used in combat as required, it would be difficult to assert that, and they may have been in some degree. What is suggested is that these were not intended as a battle weapon specifically to arm a warrior in battle conditions. With the prevalent use of firearms of course, it was not a primary weapon in any case. The main contention is that the very light, highly flexible blades which seem to have been made expressly for simple versions of these type swords used in the dancing were not used in combative situations. This is of course quite separate from those made with sturdy trade blades for the prestigious swords worn by Omani gentlemen. It does not seem that the disparity between these two separate types of these Omani long swords should be such a point of contention.

8th November 2022, 11:18 PM	#5
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Well said Jim and informative as well. I think the flexible/bendy blades may have resulted from almost random consequences of the blade making process, i.e. the coming together of good steel, adequate quenching and proper tempering. It is difficult to get all three processes to coming together even most of the time given the simple facilities available to say the smiths in Kassala. I noted an experienced blade maker apparently air quenching a blade and then tempering it in water in a channel iron tray. Certainly not the way it's done on Forged in Fire. In the "presentation of self" part I wanted to consider the sword as an Object rather than the Subject. As collectors and students of weapons we see the sword as the Subject made & used within an ethnographic context. But in its original context it is a cultural Object. The blade (imported or locally made) is a product that made by a Person, decorated & accessorized by other Persons, selected and used & worn by another Person and perhaps held dear by Others mainly within the initial cultural context. In several forum commentators, including your analysis, we get into the cultural context and this is the frontier of a more complete understanding. Best, Ed

15th November 2022, 07:55 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Forged in Fire is an interesting show, but do not think that making blades under time & material constraints to pass their extreme tests and their reasons for rejection has anything to do with reality of sword making. p.s. - I recall the approach of the Zulus to Rorke's Drift in the film 'Zulu' they beat their shields with their Iklwa hilts and sounded in their hundreds like a train. The Romans did this too, to intimidate their soon-to-be dead victims. When they actually formed up and advanced to the battle, they did it in silence* - even more unnerving. *- they did of course use trumpet commands, which the men obeyed instantly - in silence.

15th November 2022, 09:13 PM	#7
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Yep, both the "reality show" Forged in Fire and the film Zulu are/were scripted and edited productions that sacrifices reality to tell good stories. For me FIF uses the cooking show format to simulate reality. Zulu is a favorite, but I wouldn't have wanted to be one of the "live action" camera or sound men on the battlefield to get an accurate reality. Best, Ed

7th November 2022, 06:35 PM	#8
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Certainly no need to apologise. I'm delighted to have sparked a continuation of a conversation which I have read over a number of times and have had a continuing fascination for. I'm also pleased to see reference to a number of weapons which I also have representative examples in my collection, such as the seme, and particularly the sword from Sierra Leone, which until now I had failed to identify. The historical references cited are of great interest and I hope others may be found to broaden the knowledge base. Thanks to all who've contributed.