Walloon, not really?

Victrix · 10th September 2022, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I am endeavouring to write an Article about (what I am now calling) European Campaign swords for the Heritage Arms Society Magazine Barrels and Blades. The swords I am referring to are the four I have posted here that now appear to be frequestly referred to as Schwedendegen (Swiss Sword) or Schwedensabel (Swiss Sabre). As I have said I had previously described these swords as Walloons and/or Walloon Type, until I secured an actual Dutch Walloon at which time, I knew this was definitely not the correct designation for this group of swords. All of mine appear to have German Blades and I have been using the blade to suggest an age; however, I understand that this is not necessarily accurate as older blades were re-used but hoped it might give me a starting point. At this stage the age of the blades on the four examples I have range from c1610 – c1670 (Approximately).

Hi Cathey,

I strongly discourage you from identifying these type of swords as Schwedendegen or Schwedensäbel since this means Swedish sword and sabre (not Swiss!). People from non-European continents often mix up Sweden and Switzerland which have some similarities in character but are very different countries in Europe.

As I mentioned in post #2 already: “Nobody in Sweden knows why the Germans sometimes call it Schwedendegen/Schwedensäbel (Swedish sword/sabre). It seems to be a German term dating back to the 30-year war. These swords were never common in Sweden.”

Cathey · 11th September 2022, 01:07 AM

Hi Vitrix,

As you can see from my previous posts I now refer to these as Campaign swords. I used the term Schwedendegen (Swiss Sword) or Schwedensabel (Swiss Sabre) in the header of this post as it has been used on other sites and I hoped it might draw in more information.

Thank you for response, it is useful to note that these swords were not common in Sweden.

I am actaully wondering if I should perhaps start an entirely new thread in the hope of illiciting more information. These are proving very difficult to research with any degredd of confidence.

Cheers Cathey

Hotspur · 11th September 2022, 04:59 AM

I have found the thread to be very informative and have restrained my own thoughts due to real ignorance of the scope in time we are looking at.

The more I read of the descriptive terms, it seems like a timeline needs to be included to categorize the specific forms. Walloons best regarding the late century infantry swords.

My one example may be later 17th century, with the fully developed inboard plate. Also a plain broad hewing blade of cavalry length.

Some descriptions get parsed to death as to literal meanings, so that just adds more to simply calling everything a walloon (when they are not).

Thanks for this thread!

GC

Cathey · 28th September 2022, 08:22 AM

Hi Hotspur

Thankyou for posting this sword, a very nice example of this particular group. Yet another variation of a Kings head mark, it looks like the face on yours is slightly turned towards the front which I havn't seen before. This and some healthy debate over other variations has prompted me to make this a sub section of my article and try and conclude who used which particuar Kings Head. The kings head mark in some form appears to feature on many examples of these swords.

If you have any other swords with a kings head mark I would love to see them.

Cheers Cathey

Cathey · 29th September 2022, 07:19 AM

With regard to the kings head mark on blades which caused me to revisit my references. The variations are astounding, even when they can be attributed to a single maker. Attached is what I have found in my references so far. I will try not to get distracted by this area of research but it will certainly be worth revisiting when the Walloon/campaign article is complete.

Cheer Cathey

toaster5sqn · 29th September 2022, 09:00 AM

So here is the walloon type sword with a kings head mark I found in the Auckland War Memorial Museum, which they had mislabeled as a rapier!
My initial research into the Kings Head turned up the Wundes family but upon further digging I figured it had to be Martino Antonio because it faced left. Now you show me pictures that say the Wundes family mark could face either way. If anyone has any firm idea of this exact mark it would be appreciated, no other marks are to be seen on the blade.

Jim McDougall · 29th September 2022, 06:04 PM

While the focus on makers marks, specifically the 'konigskopf' (=kings head), is in some sense a digression, it is salient in some manner as pertains to these sword forms.

The 'kings head' is well known initially to the Wundes' family of Solingen from late 16th c. into 18th, however in mid to latter 18th it was adopted by the dominant Solingen Weyersberg dynasty, in which there seems to have been abundant variations. In the pages from "The Plug Bayonet" by the late Roger Evans, the mysteries of these often almost wildly variant images of kings head marks seem to have been used by different family members in different periods. Often these dies would become worn or broken, or in cases simply revised in degree to signify individual note.
There is the suggestion of possible use by the German makers who had gone to England in early 18th century to Hounslow using these Solingen marks, just as with the 'running wolf' , however this seems unlikely.

Naturally there have always been cases where well established marks were purloined on other blades, which was a matter of notable disagreement and dispute, but ironically, many markings used in Solingen were spuriously used from other countries, esp. Spain. and the guild registered markings were notably monitored.

It is interesting that in the Wundes group of kings head marks there is one with reduced points of the 'crown' referring to it as a 'conventionalized' version. In the 17th c.. Kohl was using a very similar 'emperors head', so this I'm sure might be factored in.

The 'green man' image with crown was among the figures popular in English themes in hilt decoration early 17th c. (see "British Military Swords 1600-1660" Stuart Mowbray , 2013 for further reading.

Here I would note regarding the use of these 'walloon' type swords in Sweden is further supported by the fact that Casper Kohl of Solingen went to Wira in Sweden in 1630s and there brought in other Solingen smiths as well. As these types of swords were seemingly predominant in German manufacture it seems likely they were made there, as with note to issuance of these by Gustavus Adolphus. Perhaps this might account for the term attributing these in cases being 'Swedish swords'.

11th September 2022, 04:59 AM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	I have found the thread to be very informative and have restrained my own thoughts due to real ignorance of the scope in time we are looking at. The more I read of the descriptive terms, it seems like a timeline needs to be included to categorize the specific forms. Walloons best regarding the late century infantry swords. My one example may be later 17th century, with the fully developed inboard plate. Also a plain broad hewing blade of cavalry length. Some descriptions get parsed to death as to literal meanings, so that just adds more to simply calling everything a walloon (when they are not). Thanks for this thread! GC Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 11th September 2022 at 05:11 AM.

28th September 2022, 08:22 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Kings Head Marks Hi Hotspur Thankyou for posting this sword, a very nice example of this particular group. Yet another variation of a Kings head mark, it looks like the face on yours is slightly turned towards the front which I havn't seen before. This and some healthy debate over other variations has prompted me to make this a sub section of my article and try and conclude who used which particuar Kings Head. The kings head mark in some form appears to feature on many examples of these swords. If you have any other swords with a kings head mark I would love to see them. Cheers Cathey

29th September 2022, 07:19 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Kinga Head Mark With regard to the kings head mark on blades which caused me to revisit my references. The variations are astounding, even when they can be attributed to a single maker. Attached is what I have found in my references so far. I will try not to get distracted by this area of research but it will certainly be worth revisiting when the Walloon/campaign article is complete. Cheer Cathey Attached Images

29th September 2022, 09:00 AM	#6
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 75	So here is the walloon type sword with a kings head mark I found in the Auckland War Memorial Museum, which they had mislabeled as a rapier! My initial research into the Kings Head turned up the Wundes family but upon further digging I figured it had to be Martino Antonio because it faced left. Now you show me pictures that say the Wundes family mark could face either way. If anyone has any firm idea of this exact mark it would be appreciated, no other marks are to be seen on the blade. Attached Images

11th September 2022, 01:07 AM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	I actually call them Campaign swords Hi Vitrix, As you can see from my previous posts I now refer to these as Campaign swords. I used the term Schwedendegen (Swiss Sword) or Schwedensabel (Swiss Sabre) in the header of this post as it has been used on other sites and I hoped it might draw in more information. Thank you for response, it is useful to note that these swords were not common in Sweden. I am actaully wondering if I should perhaps start an entirely new thread in the hope of illiciting more information. These are proving very difficult to research with any degredd of confidence. Cheers Cathey

29th September 2022, 06:04 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	While the focus on makers marks, specifically the 'konigskopf' (=kings head), is in some sense a digression, it is salient in some manner as pertains to these sword forms. The 'kings head' is well known initially to the Wundes' family of Solingen from late 16th c. into 18th, however in mid to latter 18th it was adopted by the dominant Solingen Weyersberg dynasty, in which there seems to have been abundant variations. In the pages from "The Plug Bayonet" by the late Roger Evans, the mysteries of these often almost wildly variant images of kings head marks seem to have been used by different family members in different periods. Often these dies would become worn or broken, or in cases simply revised in degree to signify individual note. There is the suggestion of possible use by the German makers who had gone to England in early 18th century to Hounslow using these Solingen marks, just as with the 'running wolf' , however this seems unlikely. Naturally there have always been cases where well established marks were purloined on other blades, which was a matter of notable disagreement and dispute, but ironically, many markings used in Solingen were spuriously used from other countries, esp. Spain. and the guild registered markings were notably monitored. It is interesting that in the Wundes group of kings head marks there is one with reduced points of the 'crown' referring to it as a 'conventionalized' version. In the 17th c.. Kohl was using a very similar 'emperors head', so this I'm sure might be factored in. The 'green man' image with crown was among the figures popular in English themes in hilt decoration early 17th c. (see "British Military Swords 1600-1660" Stuart Mowbray , 2013 for further reading. Here I would note regarding the use of these 'walloon' type swords in Sweden is further supported by the fact that Casper Kohl of Solingen went to Wira in Sweden in 1630s and there brought in other Solingen smiths as well. As these types of swords were seemingly predominant in German manufacture it seems likely they were made there, as with note to issuance of these by Gustavus Adolphus. Perhaps this might account for the term attributing these in cases being 'Swedish swords'.