Hybrid kris for comment

[David]

Originally Posted by JBG163

Battara, could it be possible to get close up picture of your blade ?

I would also like to see close-ups.
Also wondering José, how you have identified this pommel as Dunong (sea cow).
Dunong tusks can be up to about 25cm, but they tend to be rather slim. I'm not sure they have the mass for creating a pommel like this. Is it possible it might be whale tooth instead.
And also also wonder how you place this in the 17th century? It is a simpler form than what we generally consider to be "archaic" form keris from that era. Is there something besides it being a slim stabbing style form that leads you to such an early dating?

[kai]

Dear all,

None of the pieces shown in this thread so far is in well enough polish (and etch/stain) to really prove them actually being monosteel if defined as modern homogeneous steel from highly standardized industrial production processes, usually of western origin.

Steel of decent quality and carbon content could just as well have been obtained by selecting suitable raw material(s), folding it multiple times onto itself (i.e. "washing" out impurities and homogenizing the internal structure of the steel during this standard blacksmithing process) if you accept the associated loss of the expensive material (and coal/coke) as well as possible changes to its carbon content during this lengthy process. If you do a high polish and possibly fine etching, you can usually still see the laminated structure of such a steel (as in most Japanese sword steel); if you keep folding, the structure tends to disappear and you may only be able to detect hints from the placement of any remaining isolated imperfections. This is the traditional approach to obtain "monosteel" which was usually too precious to utilize for fully forging any blade from it. While one may find such examples crafted for affluent customers, for the majority of blades only a minimum amount of such steel got utilized though (for the middle layer of a sandwich construction or only for edges of the blade ).

Even before the availability of mass-produced western steel, steel got imported into SE Asia from China, India, and even Europe.

Regards,
Kai

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by kai

Dear all,

None of the pieces shown in this thread so far is in well enough polish (and etch/stain) to really prove them actually being monosteel if defined as modern steel from highly standardized industrial production processes, usually of western origin.

Steel of decent quality and carbon content could just as well have been obtained by selecting suitable raw material(s), folding it multiple times onto itself (i.e. "washing" out impurities and homogenizing the internal structure of the steel during this standard blacksmithing process) if you accept the associated loss of the expensive material (and coal/coke) as well as possible changes to its carbon content during this lengthy process. If you do a high polish and possibly fine etching, you can usually still see the laminated structure of such a steel (as in most Japanese sword steel); if you keep folding, the structure tends to disappear and you may only be able to detect hints from the placement of any remaining isolated imperfections. This is the traditional approach to obtain "monosteel" which was usually too precious to utilize for fully forging any blade from it. While one may find such examples crafted for affluent customers, for the majority of blades only a minimum amount of such steel got utilized though (for the middle layer of a sandwich construction or only for edges of the blade ).

Even before the availability of mass-produced western steel, steel got imported into SE Asia from China, India, and even Europe.

Regards,
Kai

I'm not that well-versed in metallurgy, Kai- but to clarify, isn't monosteel simply defined as one layer of steel? For example, stolen railroad tracks- 1084 steel, if I researched correctly- was mentioned by several historical references to have been used by pandays in the mid to late 1800s (mid- from foreign trade, late- exclusively in Luzon) and sold/bartered as "quality steel." This steel source became even more popular during the American era (early 1900s-preWW2). Parts of certain ship vessels made of steel were also cannibalized for trade. In these cases- if such steel sources were used to make swords, won't the end product qualify as monosteel?

[kai]

Hello Xas,

Yes, I should have added "homogeneous" to my quick & dirty attempt above at defining monosteel: A single layer of homogeneous steel is pretty much only possible with modern production technology (or heating wootz to red heat or even less and thereby destroying its crystalline microstructure).

OTOH, most cultures had no choice but to start with selected bloomery produce and obtain more or less laminated steel by multiple folding upon itself. If continuing with this process long enough, this results in almost homogeneous steel. However, one might argue that in most cases this is not fully equivalent to modern monosteel (more macro-/microscopic impurities and alloyed elements with negative impact as well as remnants of laminations).

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Xas,

For example, stolen railroad tracks- 1084 steel, if I researched correctly- was mentioned by several historical references to have been used by pandays in the mid to late 1800s (mid- from foreign trade, late- exclusively in Luzon) and sold/bartered as "quality steel." This steel source became even more popular during the American era (early 1900s-preWW2). Parts of certain ship vessels made of steel were also cannibalized for trade. In these cases- if such steel sources were used to make swords, won't the end product qualify as monosteel?

Yes, if a sword would be fully made from these common sources of modern steel with limited forging, the resulting blades would be monosteel. 1084 steel is an especially good choice in a low-tech setting since quenching will be successful under a fairly wide range of process parameters; also the hardened blade can still be easily sharpened and will not be prone to breaking. 1095 steel could yield better edges/hardness if quenched correctly but this is more difficult. Thus, 1084 is a good choice for longer blades in a rural setting.

If monosteel would be folded onto itself several times in a traditional SE Asian blacksmithing forge, it might exhibit (non-contrasting) laminations again.

In many cases though, this precious steel would have been only utilized as the central layer of steel for the later edges of the sword and sandwiched between 2 layers of laminated mild steels made from salvaged other materials (cheaper and less likely to break due to lesser carbon content).

BTW, leaf springs from Japanese trucks continued to be of laminated steel (IIRC even after WW2).

Regards,
Kai

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Xas,


Yes, if a sword would be fully made from these common sources of modern steel with limited forging, the resulting blades would be monosteel. 1084 steel is an especially good choice in a low-tech setting since quenching will be successful under a fairly wide range of process parameters; also the hardened blade can still be easily sharpened and will not be prone to breaking. 1095 steel could yield better edges/hardness if quenched correctly but this is more difficult. Thus, 1084 is a good choice for longer blades in a rural setting.

If monosteel would be folded onto itself several times in a traditional SE Asian blacksmithing forge, it might exhibit (non-contrasting) laminations again.

In many cases though, this precious steel would have been only utilized as the central layer of steel for the later edges of the sword and sandwiched between 2 layers of laminated mild steels made from salvaged other materials (cheaper and less likely to break due to lesser carbon content).

BTW, leaf springs from Japanese trucks continued to be of laminated steel (IIRC even after WW2).

Regards,
Kai

Dear Kai:

Thanks very much for the deluge of info and learnings! Really good stuff. One really needs to do legwork (in this case, metallurgy knowledge) to connect the dots and figure out the hows and whys of PH+Moro tradblade construction.

[JBG163]

Polished or not, flaws can help identify if it comes from bloomed steel, that was forge folded. Also some part of structure can be seen sometimes, such as layers, quench, pattern welded, even without polishing/etching. So please, dont hesitate to share close up picture in order to get more responses

[kai]

I fully agree, Julien! Sharp and well-lit close-ups would be great.

Actually, Jose's piece seems to exhibit enough activity making it a candidate for possibly being laminated...

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by David

Also wondering José, how you have identified this pommel as Dunong (sea cow).
Dunong tusks can be up to about 25cm, but they tend to be rather slim. I'm not sure they have the mass for creating a pommel like this. Is it possible it might be whale tooth instead.

Hi José. I don't know if you missed this question or not, but i am still curious. I am just not sure how one can carve a relatively chunky kakatau pommel out of dugong ivory.