Keris for identification

David · 29th August 2022, 03:45 PM

Saying a work resembles the work if Empu Djeno is not the same as having provenance that the work actual is Djeno. I agree with Anthony that the only way to establish this as a Djeno Keris with any validity would be to have it assessed by his son. That would be necessary i suppose if you ever wanted to achieve top dollar with a resale of this keris. But it is obviously a nice keris so that would be of less concern for me personally since i have never really approached my collection as an investment or accumulation of wealth. My main concern with this blade would be removing the rust. LOL! ;-)
Yes Gustav, I am sure anything is possible in terms of where a keris can end up, though we dont really have anymore than the possibility of a single generations passing to content with here. I am not sure how Sid acquired this keris, but it seems it did not come to him as a known Djeno piece. Sure, it is possible a keris of this level could be sold by an uninterested heir to a dealer who had no idea what he was buying and tossed it around until it got this beat up. That does seem less likely though.
And yes, I was aware that there are true Djeno keris as well as work done mostly by his apprentices. This doesnt mean Djeno himself was necessarily inconsistent in his greneng execution. But it can certainly explain why documented Djeno keris might appear that way.

A. G. Maisey · 29th August 2022, 09:58 PM

Sorry Gustav, I misunderstood what you wrote, in truth, I just skimmed your text and looked at the images. I have handled quite a few Djeno keris, and less keris by Sungkowo, but looking at the images you posted what I saw was a Djeno keris & a Sungkowo keris.

In fact what I still see is a Djeno keris & a Sungkowo keris, in spite of the certificate.

Your wording of text in post #15 is I believe as it should be:- "supposedly".

There is something else I should mention too, not that it makes any real difference. Pak Sungkowo is Pak Djeno's nephew, not his son.

Yes, the word "anak" can be understood as "child" , but it can be understood in many other ways as well, it does not necessarily mean that if we refer to somebody as "anak saya" (my child) that "anak" is necessarily my own offspring.

Pak Parman (Empu Suparman) would refer to me as his "anak", but it was perfectly obvious to all who could see that there was no way I could be the blood child of Pak Parman.

David · 29th August 2022, 10:22 PM

Alan, given that you recognize the keris Gustav presented as a Djeno keris & a Sungkowo keris, what would your opinion be about the possibility that either man created Sid's keris that opened this thread.
What i see looking at these three keris is three very distinctive ways of rendering ron dha. Is this a significant and/or useful observance?

A. G. Maisey · 29th August 2022, 11:09 PM

David, I would prefer to reserve my opinion in respect of Sid's keris, there is nothing I wish to add to what is already very clear from what this thread contains.

Yes, the way in which the rondha has been executed in these three keris does vary very considerably, but there are multiple other differences as well in the work that has gone into these keris.

What Gustav has said about the variation in the characteristic workmanship of a single maker is true, I made a small number of keris and the way in which I cut the rondha in each of them is different, but in my case this was intentional, I made keris not to follow the profession of Pande Keris, but rather to better understand keris and how to look at and evaluate them.

Somebody who makes keris for a living has different objectives, if he wants his work to be valued he strives to make it recogniseable as his work. This objective can change if a piece of work is not turning out as he would like it to, in which case he will deliberately vary small details so that it is not instantly recogniseable as his own work.

Then we have the problem that some very clever pande keris will deliberately copy the work of other makers, this has been going on for as long as keris have been made, I believe.

In my opinion everything that we can see in the images presented in this thread is well worth taking note of.

29th August 2022, 03:45 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Saying a work resembles the work if Empu Djeno is not the same as having provenance that the work actual is Djeno. I agree with Anthony that the only way to establish this as a Djeno Keris with any validity would be to have it assessed by his son. That would be necessary i suppose if you ever wanted to achieve top dollar with a resale of this keris. But it is obviously a nice keris so that would be of less concern for me personally since i have never really approached my collection as an investment or accumulation of wealth. My main concern with this blade would be removing the rust. LOL! ;-) Yes Gustav, I am sure anything is possible in terms of where a keris can end up, though we dont really have anymore than the possibility of a single generations passing to content with here. I am not sure how Sid acquired this keris, but it seems it did not come to him as a known Djeno piece. Sure, it is possible a keris of this level could be sold by an uninterested heir to a dealer who had no idea what he was buying and tossed it around until it got this beat up. That does seem less likely though. And yes, I was aware that there are true Djeno keris as well as work done mostly by his apprentices. This doesnt mean Djeno himself was necessarily inconsistent in his greneng execution. But it can certainly explain why documented Djeno keris might appear that way.

29th August 2022, 09:58 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Sorry Gustav, I misunderstood what you wrote, in truth, I just skimmed your text and looked at the images. I have handled quite a few Djeno keris, and less keris by Sungkowo, but looking at the images you posted what I saw was a Djeno keris & a Sungkowo keris. In fact what I still see is a Djeno keris & a Sungkowo keris, in spite of the certificate. Your wording of text in post #15 is I believe as it should be:- "supposedly". There is something else I should mention too, not that it makes any real difference. Pak Sungkowo is Pak Djeno's nephew, not his son. Yes, the word "anak" can be understood as "child" , but it can be understood in many other ways as well, it does not necessarily mean that if we refer to somebody as "anak saya" (my child) that "anak" is necessarily my own offspring. Pak Parman (Empu Suparman) would refer to me as his "anak", but it was perfectly obvious to all who could see that there was no way I could be the blood child of Pak Parman.

29th August 2022, 10:22 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Alan, given that you recognize the keris Gustav presented as a Djeno keris & a Sungkowo keris, what would your opinion be about the possibility that either man created Sid's keris that opened this thread. What i see looking at these three keris is three very distinctive ways of rendering ron dha. Is this a significant and/or useful observance?

29th August 2022, 11:09 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	David, I would prefer to reserve my opinion in respect of Sid's keris, there is nothing I wish to add to what is already very clear from what this thread contains. Yes, the way in which the rondha has been executed in these three keris does vary very considerably, but there are multiple other differences as well in the work that has gone into these keris. What Gustav has said about the variation in the characteristic workmanship of a single maker is true, I made a small number of keris and the way in which I cut the rondha in each of them is different, but in my case this was intentional, I made keris not to follow the profession of Pande Keris, but rather to better understand keris and how to look at and evaluate them. Somebody who makes keris for a living has different objectives, if he wants his work to be valued he strives to make it recogniseable as his work. This objective can change if a piece of work is not turning out as he would like it to, in which case he will deliberately vary small details so that it is not instantly recogniseable as his own work. Then we have the problem that some very clever pande keris will deliberately copy the work of other makers, this has been going on for as long as keris have been made, I believe. In my opinion everything that we can see in the images presented in this thread is well worth taking note of.