The achang dha

JBG163 · 31st May 2022, 06:40 PM

Dear all,
I just acquired an achang dha (can't post pictures for now on as i didn't received it) and i would like to get more information concerning them.
I dug every threads about them in the forum but i would like to ask if someone have references concerning those swords.
Ian looks to be the most knowledgeable forumnite on the subject, and, honestly, i would be really happy if you could help me !
The handle is classic burmese silver, no guard, scabbard is open faced and there is a carved pannel. Blade is probably hairpin patterned and quench is quite visible

My precise questions are :
"What does discriminate that sword as an Achang dha ? Is it the pannel or the open faced scabbard ?"
"Does it exist exemple in museum collection that you all are aware off ?"
"Does it exist any books, catalogue or any references talking about them and pinpointing the tribe?"

Thanks all in advance !
I look forward to read you

Best,
Julien

Ian · 3rd June 2022, 02:21 PM

Hello Julien,

I'm afraid there is not a great deal available in the form of reference material on the Achang and their sword-making. You probably have read already everything I know about the subject. I do have some pictures that I collected online over the years and will post some of these. I believe that I have some showing the forging and decorating techniques, and several examples of contemporary swords made by them.

Ian

JBG163 · 10th June 2022, 01:55 PM

Thanks Ian !
Really hard to find infos... especially about old exemple.
Here is my exemple. I Will share more picture when i got it in hands
Thanks in advance

Sajen · 12th June 2022, 09:41 PM

Very nice example, it will look beautiful after some TLC!

Regards,
Detlef

JeffS · 13th June 2022, 05:16 AM

Love the scrollwork on the scabbard. Really nice blades on these. Is that silver on the handle? Does it have a pommel cap? Looking forward to seeing it cleaned.

JBG163 · 13th June 2022, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffS

Love the scrollwork on the scabbard. Really nice blades on these. Is that silver on the handle? Does it have a pommel cap? Looking forward to seeing it cleaned.

Thanks for her ! Yeah, it's awesome stuff. I will give you more info on the cap when i have it in hands. The handle is silver yes

JBG163 · 23rd August 2022, 06:33 PM

Here we go, with a bit of delay !

JeffS · 24th August 2022, 01:04 AM

Thanks for that. Here is my example.

RobT · 24th August 2022, 02:50 AM

Hi All,

I have a dha that had a label on the sheath which said, "KACHIN 1945". The hilt of my dha (which is all copper) matches JBG163's example very closely but the sheath looks like a typical Shan or Kachin dha sheath. According to Wikipedia, there are Achang living in the Kachin State where they are known as Ngochang. Perhaps whoever collected my blade got it from an Achang living in a Kachin area and assumed that the owner was Kachin? Or Perhaps a Kachin obtained the blade from an Achang and had a new sheath made for it? Because of the sun stamp by the hilt, I had always assumed the blade was of Husa manufacture but the same Wikipedia article mentions a group of Achang that call themselves Husa Achang. Could my sword have been of Husa Achang manufacture for the Kachin market? The blade of my dha has a peaked spine, hua tat, and measures 22-1/8" (56.1975cm) long.

Sincerely,
RobT

JeffS · 24th August 2022, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi All,

ICould my sword have been of Husa Achang manufacture for the Kachin market? The blade of my dha has a peaked spine, hua tat, and measures 22-1/8" (56.1975cm) long.

Sincerely,
RobT

My blade has very fine hairpin lamination (pic below), and I understand that is a known characteristic of Kachin sword dao. Do you see this on your blade? Husa is a village (area) that is ethnically Achang and from what I have read on this forum, supplied weapons for many different ethnic groups. I also read they attribute their swordmaking history and other distinctive traditions to Han Chinese from the Ming army who stayed behind (1400's) and married into the Husa Achang community. I think it is cool that you can find Husa swords being made and sold on Ebay that look to be very high quality (though modern designs) with distinctive hamon. I also understand the village still produces traditional sword dao with the scrollwork open scabbards.

JBG163 · 24th August 2022, 07:33 AM

Hi Rob and Jeff
Rob, in my opinion, your sword is a shan dha from burma.
Jeff, blade is almost the same on our swords. Quench line start the same way and the thin lamination with hairpin pattern are identical. They were great craftsmen !

kronckew · 24th August 2022, 09:42 AM

Although made in Yunnan, that pretty much all of these swords with this typical silver dress hilt are those made for the Kachin and Rawang Kachin , Nung Kachin,, ot branches of the Lisu peoplei n Burma and Yunnan north Thailand, in short they were made by the Yunnanese but for many peoples in both Burma and Yunnan. Other tribes who used such swords were the Chins.

The Husa Achang are also makers of many swords and working tools for the Kachin and even the Shans today, so it really is hard to say who in tribal origin race or region would have used this, Kachin dao, would still be the best way to explain this and its origin.

See also: https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=265678

JBG163 · 24th August 2022, 11:32 AM

Its an interesting response Kronckew.
The amount of informations about those swords is quite low.
But we know that the Achang produced swords for several ethnic groups.

Now, that specific type have specials features différent than the other one produced : open work panel or simple panel.

Were they used by the achang themselves or sold to the kachin and Singpo neighbours ?

I didnt found any informations for now

RobT · 26th August 2022, 02:42 AM

JeffS,

Although I have eight dha that I consider most likely to be Kachin (either because of the tip [hua tat or hua tat kong] or the style of the hilt), none of them have a tweezer weld. Also, none of them are in fine enough polish to show whether they have had differential edge heat treatment or not.

JBG163,

You identify my sword as Shan and you may be correct but it was labeled "Kachin 1945" so something must have caused it to be so designated and, as kronckew pointed out, ascribing dha from this area to one ethnic group or another can be dicey.

Sincerely,
RobT

JBG163 · 26th August 2022, 11:37 AM

Youare right Rob,
Always tricky as part are generally matched from different région. In the culture or later. Kachin tends to prefer flat end as said a good friend.
It all always a guess

31st May 2022, 06:40 PM	#1
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 207	The achang dha Dear all, I just acquired an achang dha (can't post pictures for now on as i didn't received it) and i would like to get more information concerning them. I dug every threads about them in the forum but i would like to ask if someone have references concerning those swords. Ian looks to be the most knowledgeable forumnite on the subject, and, honestly, i would be really happy if you could help me ! The handle is classic burmese silver, no guard, scabbard is open faced and there is a carved pannel. Blade is probably hairpin patterned and quench is quite visible My precise questions are : "What does discriminate that sword as an Achang dha ? Is it the pannel or the open faced scabbard ?" "Does it exist exemple in museum collection that you all are aware off ?" "Does it exist any books, catalogue or any references talking about them and pinpointing the tribe?" Thanks all in advance ! I look forward to read you Best, Julien Last edited by JBG163; 31st May 2022 at 07:08 PM.

10th June 2022, 01:55 PM	#3
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 207	Thanks Ian ! Really hard to find infos... especially about old exemple. Here is my exemple. I Will share more picture when i got it in hands Thanks in advance Attached Images

23rd August 2022, 06:33 PM	#7
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 207	Here we go, with a bit of delay ! Attached Images

24th August 2022, 01:04 AM	#8
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 345	Thanks for that. Here is my example. Attached Images

24th August 2022, 02:50 AM	#9
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	I Also Have Questions Hi All, I have a dha that had a label on the sheath which said, "KACHIN 1945". The hilt of my dha (which is all copper) matches JBG163's example very closely but the sheath looks like a typical Shan or Kachin dha sheath. According to Wikipedia, there are Achang living in the Kachin State where they are known as Ngochang. Perhaps whoever collected my blade got it from an Achang living in a Kachin area and assumed that the owner was Kachin? Or Perhaps a Kachin obtained the blade from an Achang and had a new sheath made for it? Because of the sun stamp by the hilt, I had always assumed the blade was of Husa manufacture but the same Wikipedia article mentions a group of Achang that call themselves Husa Achang. Could my sword have been of Husa Achang manufacture for the Kachin market? The blade of my dha has a peaked spine, hua tat, and measures 22-1/8" (56.1975cm) long. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images Last edited by RobT; 24th August 2022 at 02:58 AM. Reason: add'l info

3rd June 2022, 02:21 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,204	Hello Julien, I'm afraid there is not a great deal available in the form of reference material on the Achang and their sword-making. You probably have read already everything I know about the subject. I do have some pictures that I collected online over the years and will post some of these. I believe that I have some showing the forging and decorating techniques, and several examples of contemporary swords made by them. Ian

12th June 2022, 09:41 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	Very nice example, it will look beautiful after some TLC! Regards, Detlef

13th June 2022, 05:16 AM	#5
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 345	Love the scrollwork on the scabbard. Really nice blades on these. Is that silver on the handle? Does it have a pommel cap? Looking forward to seeing it cleaned.

24th August 2022, 07:33 AM	#11
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 207	Hi Rob and Jeff Rob, in my opinion, your sword is a shan dha from burma. Jeff, blade is almost the same on our swords. Quench line start the same way and the thin lamination with hairpin pattern are identical. They were great craftsmen !

24th August 2022, 09:42 AM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Although made in Yunnan, that pretty much all of these swords with this typical silver dress hilt are those made for the Kachin and Rawang Kachin , Nung Kachin,, ot branches of the Lisu peoplei n Burma and Yunnan north Thailand, in short they were made by the Yunnanese but for many peoples in both Burma and Yunnan. Other tribes who used such swords were the Chins. The Husa Achang are also makers of many swords and working tools for the Kachin and even the Shans today, so it really is hard to say who in tribal origin race or region would have used this, Kachin dao, would still be the best way to explain this and its origin. See also: https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=265678

24th August 2022, 11:32 AM	#13
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 207	Its an interesting response Kronckew. The amount of informations about those swords is quite low. But we know that the Achang produced swords for several ethnic groups. Now, that specific type have specials features différent than the other one produced : open work panel or simple panel. Were they used by the achang themselves or sold to the kachin and Singpo neighbours ? I didnt found any informations for now

26th August 2022, 02:42 AM	#14
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Kachin & Hairpin JeffS, Although I have eight dha that I consider most likely to be Kachin (either because of the tip [hua tat or hua tat kong] or the style of the hilt), none of them have a tweezer weld. Also, none of them are in fine enough polish to show whether they have had differential edge heat treatment or not. JBG163, You identify my sword as Shan and you may be correct but it was labeled "Kachin 1945" so something must have caused it to be so designated and, as kronckew pointed out, ascribing dha from this area to one ethnic group or another can be dicey. Sincerely, RobT

26th August 2022, 11:37 AM	#15
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 207	Youare right Rob, Always tricky as part are generally matched from different région. In the culture or later. Kachin tends to prefer flat end as said a good friend. It all always a guess Last edited by JBG163; 26th August 2022 at 12:01 PM.