Russian hunting knives of the 16th-18th and 19th centuries

[Mercenary]

18th

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

18th

Thank you! Very interesting

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thank you! Very interesting

Tula (city). Technique similar to this:

[ariel]

This is a fragment of a long and detailed article by Novosyolov in the Russian journal " Studies of historical weapons #11. Till recently, Russian literature relied on 3 varieties of old Russian knives: boot knife, belt knife and saadak knife. Novosyolov pinpoints their European and Islamic ( Turkish specifically) motives and suggests that the classification in question was a myth created by one Yakovlev and perpetuated from there on.

Since I am one of the very few on this Forum who knows Russian language, the rest of Forumites will remain in the dark about the veracity of Novosyolov's analysis and conclusions. But just to copy pictures of various knives and figures from the article is not enough: a full translation of the text is needed for anyone with an interest in the field.

Just a general comment: since this is not my area of even minimal interest, I am not qualified to critique or even spend any time going deep into the subject. But some people here may want to know more about that topic.

Overall, knives are IMHO the toughest variety of blades weapons to attribute. Swords were valued fighting implements, knives were by and large utilitarian objects discarded easily. There is a disappointing scarcity of old Russian knives in existence and that prevents any statistically-based classification.
Suffice it to say that the long and narrow-bladed inward curving dagger widely believed by the Russian collectors and arms historians to be the classic example of the so-called saadak knife exists as a solitary (!) example.



Also, taking into account that all Russian weapons have their origins either in Turkic or European traditions, it is difficult to imagine that knives,-the short-bladed ones,- are any different. Many societies preserved their " traditional" weapons: Japan, Turkey, Iran, India, Balkans etc. and contunued to produce them until recently and often even now. But the examples discussed in Novosyolov's paper ( XIV-XVII centuries ) ceased to remain in use 400 years ago.... There are more 2000-3000 years old Roman and Greek swords and knives in the museums than their Russian counterparts dating to the above time period.

Tough topic to study.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

since this is not my area of even minimal interest, I am not qualified to critique or even spend any time going deep into the subject.

Then just read the article again. The pictures show exactly Russian knives. This is not reasonable without knowing the subject, to argue with the archives of the Armory Chamber of the Moscow Kremlin and the curator of its collection.

Originally Posted by ariel

There is a disappointing scarcity of old Russian knives in existence and that prevents any statistically-based classification.

That is why I posted these pictures. Just look and learn something more.

Originally Posted by ariel

Also, taking into account that all Russian weapons have their origins either in Turkic or European traditions, it is difficult to imagine that knives,-the short-bladed ones,- are any different.

You know all sabers have their origins in Turkic traditions? And what?

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Then just read the article again. The pictures show exactly Russian knives. This is not reasonable without knowing the subject, to argue with the archives of the Armory Chamber of the Moscow Kremlin and the curator of its collection.




That is why I posted these pictures. Just look and learn something more.




You know all sabers have their origins in Turkic traditions? And what?

I did actually read the Novosyolov's article. I wonder, however, whether you have read my post as well as Novosyolov's article carefully enough.

Novosyolov's article is kind of divided into 2 parts.
First, he addressed the accepted dogma that pictures by von Herberstein and General Viskovatov reflected the reality by comparison of the old drawings with actual examples from the Moscow museum ( Armory Chamber of the Moscow Kremlin ) that served as original for the pictures.
Among the 6 knives pictured by von Herberstein and Viskovatov not a single one was of Russian origin:
-The first from the left ("belt knife") is actually a baginet ( bayonet) of Swedish manufacture.
-Next one is a dagger with an ivory handle and animal head for a pommel.
Current Museum description defines it as an 18 century Oriental dagger.
-Yet the next one is currently attributed by the Museum as Indian 17-18 century

-Next is by far the most famous dagger of Prince Staritsky, variously called either " kinjal" or " saadak knife". The latter is directly contradicted by the next example( see below) and the former is just a generic term for fighting ( military) knives in Russian language. The defining feature of that dagger is a long and very narrow down-curved blade. Mr. Novosyolov does not provide any attribution and silently agrees with the " kinjal" name. I am surprised that he did not mention the 11-12 century Ghaznavid dagger from the Furussia collection ( " The art of the Muslim knight", Fig. 143), a form virtually identical to the Staritsky's dagger. Somewhat similar Ghaznavid 11-12 century daggers, also with down-curved but wider blades are shown there, too ( ibid. Figs 138-139).
Whether Staritsky's dagger is a later rendition of the above Ghaznavid daggers brought to Russia from some Oriental locality or a Russian made ( unreadable inscriptions " ...imitating Arabic-like inscriptions") is unknown, but its original construction is definitely not Russian, but taken from the above very old daggers.

-Next one is an alleged " saadak knife" with wide yataghan-like blade, currently attributed to Turkey 18 century.

- Next is a so-called" boot knife, in reality Indian 17-18 century

-And the last one is a yet another " boot knife" , in reality Iranian or Turkish Khanjar 18 century.

Thus, this part of Mr. Novosyolov's paper is very important for the Russian study of historical arms. For the first time in the history of the Moscow Museum he actually pulled the models for the von Herberstin and Viskovatovs drawings and destroyed the myth of the " Russian boot, belt and saadak knives". Moreover he had convincingly demonstrated that none of the daggers in question had anything to do with Russian tradition.
I do not argue with Mr. Novosyolov on that , I applaud him.

The second part of his article deals with several remarkably uniform fighting or hunting knives looking like Persian/Indo-Persian Kards with significantly longer blades.
One of them has a mark "OIR" ( or "OIK") in ) Latin letters, and has a silhouette of Oriental " habaki" ( I do not know its Turkish/Persian name, but Philip Tom and Kirill Rivkin use the above moniker, so I adhere to it) applied to the blade with silver koftgari technique. These superficial silhouettes were and still are used on Ottoman yataghans and bichaqs as well as Persian/Indo-Persian Pesh-Kabzes.

They have handle construction reminiscent of Oriental daggers ( separate pommel, grip, bolster) , one has a cylindrical cap bolster with a flat top ( See yataghan of Bayezid II or the Crimean Golden Horde yataghans from Tekstilshchik ( Danilenko, Shvetzov,Gershkovich. Arch. Inst.Natl. Acad.Sci. Ukraine, 1991, vol.58) and Quipchak dagger from Chingul Kurgan (Otroshchenko and Rassamakin, Archeologiya ( Ukr.) 1986, vol. 53). Regretfully, Moscow Museum restoration group put a new cylindrical pommel on another dagger and the authenticity cannot be claimed anymore.

Thus, 1 out of 4 presented allegedly "old Russian" daggers is not Russian at all ( as per decorations and blade markings) and the overall construction of all 4 faithfully reproduces Oriental daggers (blade length does not count: all of the above daggers are defined as the "hunting" ones). Importantly, none show any Russian markings.


To your last comment: Yes, all sabers in the entire world originate from South Siberian/Khazar traditions , Russia being no exception. But we still easily attribute some saber blades to India, Ottomans, Persia, Aravia, SE Asia and even England ( 1796 pattern). I know of no Russian models showing any constructional originality.
Moreover, we are discussing here not sabers, but daggers. Do you know and can you show any fighting shortbladed weapon that would boast unquestionably Russian heritage? I would love to see it and learn something new.

With best wishes.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

and the overall construction of all 4 faithfully reproduces Oriental daggers (blade length does not count: all of the above daggers are defined as the "hunting" ones)

Could you please show similar Oriental daggers?

Originally Posted by ariel

blade length does not count

Very interesting... Why?

Originally Posted by ariel

Importantly, none show any Russian markings

Excuse me, what is this? Hammer and sickle?

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

I know of no Russian models showing any constructional originality.

learn something new