Back to Laz Bicagi

[mahratt]

We all know that weapons "travel" very easily. For example, in the last topic, participants posted photos of Pontic Greeks with Laz Bichak.
If you carefully read the article, then there is such information: "The Lazistan sanjak included: Batum, Lower and Upper Adjara, Machakheli, Gonio, Hopa, Arkhave, Hemshin, Atina." That is, to put it simply, at that moment Adjara is part of Lazistan.

"A large center for the production of weapons was in Trebizond, located in central Lazistan, not so far from the Adjara-Guria center for the production of weapons. This center of production must be mentioned in our study, also because most of the craftsmen in Trebizond were Laz. This was directly mentioned in 1837 by the English officer Douglas Stevens, who visited the border territories of the Ottoman and Russian empires for the purpose of intelligence. First he visited the regions of Western Georgia, and then Lazistan"

So it's not worth "reinvent the wheel" coming up with a new name, instead of the quite appropriate "Laz Bichak"

[gp]

Concerning " Baba Kamas" :

in many slavic countries :

Kama means knife
Baba means grandmother….

but baba also is used in “ baba Jaga “ : a magical wild dark witchy deadly woman

When citing names one has to incorporate the cultural and linguistic significance in order to explain the item ‘ s name and understand.

This is quite typical for many slavic regions and countries to give nicknames, which in oneway might symbolize something with regards to the use or nature of the object or another way gives a touchy, sometimes kind, sometimes mischievous or quite serious or slightly humoristic name to a deadly weapon.
A “ Granny ‘ s knife “ or even “ the witch’s dagger “ is quite sarcastic or ironical in a way for a deadly weapon….

FYI : Not only objects but also people have met with this change of name …
(think of the Ossetian Ioseb Jughashvili or the Croat Josip Broz)

[ariel]

Originally Posted by gp

Concerning " Baba Kamas" :

in many slavic countries :

Kama means knife
Baba means grandmother….

but baba also is used in “ baba Jaga “ : a magical wild dark witchy deadly woman

When citing names one has to incorporate the cultural and linguistic significance in order to explain the item ‘ s name and understand.

This is quite typical for many slavic regions and countries to give nicknames, which in oneway might symbolize something with regards to the use or nature of the object or another way gives a touchy, sometimes kind, sometimes mischievous or quite serious or slightly humoristic name to a deadly weapon.
A “ Granny ‘ s knife “ or even “ the witch’s dagger “ is quite sarcastic or ironical in a way for a deadly weapon….

FYI : Not only objects but also people have met with this change of name …
(think of the Ossetian Ioseb Jughashvili or the Croat Josip Broz)

Just a digression:
Kama is not Slavic, it is Turkish for dagger.
Baba in Russian is either a peasant woman or a grandmother.
Baba in Turkish is “father”, buyuk baba is “grandfather”.

And the only way for a grandmother to become a grandfather is to grow a pair of testicles:-)))

[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

Just a digression:
Kama is not Slavic, it is Turkish for dagger.
Baba in Russian is either a peasant woman or a grandmother.
Baba in Turkish is “father”, buyuk baba is “grandfather”.

And the only way for a grandmother to become a grandfather is to grow a pair of testicles:-)))

Originally Posted by ariel

Just a digression:
Kama is not Slavin, it is Turkish for dagger.
Baba in Russian is either a peasant woman or a grandmother.
Baba in Turkish is “father”, buyuk baba is “grandfather”.

And the only way for a grandmother to become a grandfather is to grow a pair of testicles:-)))

If you go to the Balkans my dear friend….

1. Kama is used for knives…be assured! Not only now but since centuries actually.
It might be of Ottoman origin, but like English has many Latin and French words…languages evolve….you wouldn’t call office not an English word but French, now would you…?

Latest formal use of kama was the Kama Division of the SS which existed out of Albanians, and had the knife as their symbol, similar by the way as the Handcar SS division from the former Yugoslavia had a handcar as symbol and nothing to do with Turkish….although the name originates from it….
Just look up the dictionaries of these countries !

2. Concerning baba… in Serbo- Croatian, now Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian…baba stands for grandmother…
Geographical places like Babin Zub in BiH and Babin Kuk in Croatia clearly stand for grandmother….
Zub = tooth and the rock resembles a tooth of a grandmother without any other teeth than just one corner tooth

https://27crags.com/crags/babin-zub


Kuk = hip and has an equal function ….and actually a beautiful holidayplace for well to do people.
Nicknames…just creative way of people with language !
Babin is genitiv of baba

and instead of making a silly sexistic remark, you’d better check your statements with reality:again check a simple translator online…

https://www.contextualdictionary.com...n-english/baba

https://www.contextualdictionary.com...n-english/BABA

https://glosbe.com/bs/en/baba

[ariel]

OК, we agree on the meaning of “ baba” in Slavic languages and by definition on its meaning in Turkish. My joke was never sexist, I can assure you as a professional endocrinologist.

[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

OК, we agree on the meaning of “ baba” in Slavic languages and by definition on its meaning in Turkish. My joke was never sexist, I can assure you as a professional endocrinologist.

discussing weapons is what I was doing with regards to " Baba Kamas"

Explaining it might be nicknamed "grandmother's knife " based upon the tradition in the Slavic world to find nicknames one way or another.

Apologies if you didn't get my explanation...nor was it my intention to insult you on the "baba " translation, moreover just to enlarge your knowledge from a limited perspective which it was appaerantly. Sorry my dear friend !

Bottom line, short and simple: one ought never exclude the influence of language and culture....What means one thing in Russian, might mean something complete different in Serbian.

[gp]

Nor do many do think your "grandmother-grandfather" remark to be my personal grievance but of rather bad taste to insulting.
FYI: I invited some institutions in the Balkans to join here but they are not amused as scolars, publicists and some of them being female .

[OsobistGB]

Originally Posted by gp

Concerning " Baba Kamas" :

in many slavic countries :

Kama means knife
Baba means grandmother….

but baba also is used in “ baba Jaga “ : a magical wild dark witchy deadly woman

When citing names one has to incorporate the cultural and linguistic significance in order to explain the item ‘ s name and understand.

This is quite typical for many slavic regions and countries to give nicknames, which in oneway might symbolize something with regards to the use or nature of the object or another way gives a touchy, sometimes kind, sometimes mischievous or quite serious or slightly humoristic name to a deadly weapon.
A “ Granny ‘ s knife “ or even “ the witch’s dagger “ is quite sarcastic or ironical in a way for a deadly weapon….

FYI : Not only objects but also people have met with this change of name …
(think of the Ossetian Ioseb Jughashvili or the Croat Josip Broz)

I have no idea of your nationality and of your linguistic abilities Баба / baba -actually translates as grandmother , but here in this case the word comes from the Turkish language and means father. I actually know many cases where google translate can put you in an awkward position

[Jim McDougall]

Its hard to believe we have been 'discussing' these curious swords (using a safe term) for nearly two decades, and this is as far as we've gotten. Naturally this has become one of the premier bouts of the much loved 'name game' which has given us quite a lot of consternation in more 'discussions' than can be remembered.

When Tony Tirri compiled his most helpful reference in 2004, in his entry of these, he used a Russian reference as one of the two cites he provided, in which these were termed 'khopesh from North Africa.

Just wanted to add this from British Museum, top example. There is a degree of similarity in the recurve of the blade. Interesting, 19th dynasty to 19th century.

[ariel]

In 1878, according to the San Stefano agreement, everything including Guria and Adjaria but excluding the southernmost part of Lazistan ( around Trabzon) was returned by the Turks to Georgia, at that time the part of Russian Empire. Large part of Lazistan joined the general Adjaro-Gurian region in Georgia. Georgian Laz are Christian, Turkish Laz became Moslems.
Both pictures specifying the ethnicities of people shown there are signed in Russian i.e. clearly indicating locations of studios: Russian-controlled Georgia.
The reason I cited that paper is to show that the so-called Laz Bicagi was not
endemic to southern, i.e. Turkish, Lazistan. It co-existed with Adjaria and Guria contemporaneously. I leave the question of its original invention to Mr. Dvalishvili.

One needs to pay close attention to historiography; ignoring it leads to careless and often illiterate statements. I could bring examples but do not wish to embarrass their author.

[gp]

Originally Posted by mahratt

We all know that weapons "travel" very easily.....

So it's not worth "reinvent the wheel" coming up with a new name, instead of the quite appropriate "Laz Bichak"

looking at all the above, I have to agree witth "uncle"/ dzadyushka Mahratt and would like to leave the name as is.

I like the fact that the Armenian name for a nail is used for the type of Surmene kind of dagger but quite well understand its similarity with a sharp 9 inch nail compared to the size of a yataghan type of swords, which folks would have carried in that time in that erea and hence resulting in a kind of humoristic version name given to it.


But than again I might be mistaken and look forward to your input and advise....

[drac2k]

Your ire seemed to be raised by his comment "And the only way for a grandmother to become a grandfather is to grow a pair of testicles;.)))"
While this may seem silly to you, the "smiley face," would indicate that it was a joke. You also stated that women would be offended by this comment, but isn't that a sexist assumption on your part that men wouldn't be offended too, LOL.

[Interested Party]

I have enjoyed the linguistics and the history lesson. I hadn't realized the Gurians and the Mengrelian peoples were Laz. So Laz were a Circassian people? Or were the terms interchangeable? Were the Adyghe considered Laz? Did the Gurian and Mengrelian bicagi differ as much as their kindjals did? For that matter I have always wondered if the Gurian kindjal was primarily used to settle disputes within the Gurian group, as, I have read, stabbing in the larger Caucasian culture was considered bad manners if the person was in your ethnic group. The same way Vietnam era Marines used an entrenching tool to settle inter-platoon disputes, or in my Dad's generation it was considered bad manners to shoot a friend with a caliber larger than .25 and above the waist? These little etiquette quirks to keep social groups from falling into chaos are interesting and a good segue.

[TVV]

Perhaps the posts about the "baba kama" should be separated into a separate topic, where GP can continue his posts about the slavic meaning of "baba" about a weapon from an area with no Slavic speakers. I personally have very little interest in that particular discussion.

[Interested Party]

I took it to be he was chiming in on Ariel's "is this the correct name?" and suggesting there was a possibility of a neighboring influence?

[ariel]

[QUOTE=Interested Party;273367]I have enjoyed the linguistics and the history lesson. I hadn't realized the Gurians and the Mengrelian peoples were Laz. So Laz were a Circassian people? Or were the terms interchangeable? QUOTE]

No , they were separate, but likely very close. As I mentioned already, Mingrelian and Laz languages were just mutual dialects.
Around 15 century unified Georgian kingdom collapsed and on its ruins separate small kingdoms and principalities were establishes: Kartli, Kakheti, Imereti, Megrelian, Gurian etc. Perhaps that was the reason for the appearance of “ nationalities”, although there are obvious linguistic differences between several.

[Battara]

Folks I am close to closing this thread. I don't care who starts it, but if anyone starts with the personal insults again, and if anyone responds in kind, not only will this marvelous thread close, but the combatants will also take a "vacation". This is your only warning. I have edited this to keep the content.

For those of you who chose to stay on topic and not get sucked in, thank you so much.

Now back to the topic please.