A RECENTLY ACQUIRED CUP HILT SWORD FOR COMMENTS

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Are the wavy parts of the blade sharp at all?? If not, they are clearly not for cutting. Looks to me like its decorational for ceremonial use.

It depends on whether you see it in pictures or with the naked eye. In the example in discussion, both 'upper' edges and identations are sharpened, with different techniques, so i notice; the sharpness on the lower parts appears more acute. I wonder if the pictures i took are elucidative ... not easy with my humble abilities.
This thing of (any) blades being operational or decorative depending on them being or not sharpen/ed, may not be a black or white issue ... i guess. There is a montante (two handed sword) in Lisbon military Museum, dated circa 1500, attributed to navigator Vasco da Gama, which the photographer (i guess also the caption) defines as being 'almost' decorative, judging by the XVI century period, and i read in period chronicles that the nobility in India, the social class that marched on the front of troops, used such montantes to open way among the opponents. Whether those were not sharpened, would that be a pertinent question ?


.

[fernando]

Swords with undulated blades from the Pindela Manor; a collection amassed by the 2nd. Viscount of Pindela (1852-1922). After he died, the widow has deaccessed the collection, which is now exhibited in the State owned Palace of the Dukes of Bragança.

.

[midelburgo]

Hello Fernando.
If the "orejas" applied to the pas d'ane is not in "Nueva Ciencia" I have no idea where I read it.
Towards 2005 I read a number of Destreza manuals. It is not in Rada either so far. And Brea (1804) calls them "patillas".
I have been checking the Ordenanzas (1728, 1738, 1762, 1768) and it is not in there. They use "barretas".

Morla (Tratado de Artilleria, second volume, 1817 edition; pages 119-137 deals with swords and sword making, very informative chapter. Toledo factory depended on the Artillery corps) calls them "guardamonte", but that is the whole piece.

Ramirez de Arellano 1767, on Cavalry and Dragoons describes their swords without mentioning these parts.

I have a heavy Main Gauche with a wavy blade, I will check it later maybe its blade comes from a sword as one of the above.

PS. Now I notice. In the drawing of the two fencers fom Thomas Luis, they do not put any finger over the cross (you also do not on the first post). I find taking a cavalry 1728 without passing two fingers over the cross as problematic.

I supose you know about these people:
http://ageaeditora.com/en/livros/

They call the pas d'ane, anéis in Portuguese.
http://ageaeditora.com/en/nomes-partes-da-espada/

[midelburgo]

I found another couple of Portugese wavy swords. IIRC from a Brazilian collection.

[midelburgo]

I also ordered from AGEA some of the newly edited Portugese XVIIth century fencing manuals. It is close to Spanish Destreza, so it should not a be a surprise swords were also alike. The three on the top (left) were presents from Manuel Valle many years ago.

Next is my navy dagger with a wavy blade, posibly recycled from a sword.

[fernando]

I happen to have a copy of TRATADO DAS LIÇÕES DA ESPADA PRETA; most interesting.
That sword signed by ANTONIO CARVALHO is a rarity. This smith is listed in a precious two volume work by SOUSA VITERBO "A ARMARIA EM PORTUGAL" (1907). The sword shown here had in the other side of the blade EM LISBOA no 1633 and could well be the one present in a Spanish/Portuguese exhibition that took place in Lisbon in 1882 (catalogue Item 313 Page 235).


.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... Next is my navy dagger with a wavy blade, posibly recycled from a sword...

Looks like a rather "different" dagger indeed... and an old one. I wouldn't mind having it

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by fernando

Looks like a rather "different" dagger indeed... and an old one. I wouldn't mind having it

It weights 850grams for some 45cm. The grip is solid iron and the sail is quite thick so it could be used for punching.

It is tinned. And on the tin it was covered in black paint, possibly made with coal dust and boiled hooves (as navy iron guns). The grip was covered in red paint.

I bought it as a theater something. When I got it it was a ball of rust, you could not see the grooves on the blade, much less the designs on the shell. In order to preserve the tin I decided to use electrolysis. That destroyed most of the paint by electrophoresis, the protein moved to the + electrode and the coal was freed in the buffer. It was a confusing mess until I realized what was happening.

The swords above are in Cornwall, in a Manor called Cotehele, not in Brazil.

https://www.nationaltrustcollections...cotehele+sword
https://www.museumsincornwall.org.uk...nwall-Museums/

[fernando]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... They call the pas d'ane, anéis in Portuguese.
http://ageaeditora.com/en/nomes-partes-da-espada/

The actual pas d'ane, i believe, but not the cup fixation 'patillas', i guess.