The Espada Ancha Myth

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In post #5, the bowl type shell guard, note the serpent creeping near one edge. As we know from examples with provenance from South America on these, and we can presume they were among 'Spanish Main' examples, this example of 'espada ancha' with the serpent on the quillon perhaps is from southern regions as well?
Clearly this is presumption, but at this point it is what is at hand as far as clues.

Well, i just saw an example with a similar serpent head on the upper quilllon of a D guard with a clam shell decoration, with a hardwood grip, mounted on a Spanish blade, with Toledo marks dated 1792 and the cypher of King Carlos IV, said to have been found in Texas and of Mexican origin.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Well, i just saw an example with a similar serpent head on the upper quilllon of a D guard with a clam shell decoration, with a hardwood grip, mounted on a Spanish blade, with Toledo marks dated 1792 and the cypher of King Carlos IV, said to have been found in Texas and of Mexican origin.

Thanks Fernando, sure would love to see a picture of that. Just to clarify, my suggestion was that the examples of the serpent feature with some sort of provenance imply a certain preponderance in these southern regions. Naturally as movement of settlers and supply moved northward, and as expected, materials and cultural items including weapons moved as well.
That is of course the primary conundrum in trying to establish regional categorization with ethnographic weapons.

In 1760, King Carlos III sought to bring back the sword making industry to Toledo, and began with virtually the only remaining master maker from Valencia. In 1780, the manufactory opened in outskirts of Toledo.
It is not surprising to see the markings of Toledo and Carlos IV on blades, these were coming into the colonies in large bundles for many years.
In these times Texas was part of New Spain (now Mexico).

Attached:
Grouping of long bladed Spanish colonial types and two (on right) espada ancha types
Left to right:
A 'Caribbean cuphilt', these versions of the famed Spanish cuphilt are of course crudely fashioned and prevailed in the 'Spanish Main' areas.

The 'bilbo' regulation Spanish arming sword is the true 'espada ancha' (broadsword). These dragoon blades are double edged, hence the term.
These prevailed throughout Spains colonies including those of the northern frontiers, and in Alta California.

The curious 'guanabacoa' which is an offshoot of these machetes, but seems to have prevailed in Cuba, and east coast Mexico, Vera Cruz. The blade on this is almost a bar of steel, but note the hilt with shell guard (most of these are without). I first learned identification of this from Pierce Chamberlain many years back.

The long blade espada ancha which seems to be of Gulf and Spanish Main prevalence, this example from Spanish colonies in America, probably Florida and latter 19th c.

The so called 'round tang' espada ancha (Adams '85) of form which came into use post 1810 in revolutionary forces.

The shell guard form being discussed with serpent, these known have provenance to Brazil mid 19th c. but seem to have prevailed in Spanish Main regions much earlier, my example has British blade c.1805.

A pair of branched guard sabers which came into use with colonial military prior to 1821. The brass hilt example has the 'Spanish motto' and the familiar 'dragoon' broadsword blade.

The other has blade marked TOLEDO.

These have no royal markings. There was strong affinity for French form which had prevailed even before the Napoleonic overtaking of Spain in 1808.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Fernando, sure would love to see a picture of that...

E-mail sent .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It is not surprising to see the markings of Toledo and Carlos IV on blades, these were coming into the colonies in large bundles for many years...

But this is enough to make those non studious think (some) espadas anchas were made in Toledo .

[Jim McDougall]

Here is an example of the turn back pommel that seems associated with Potosi, but still seeking more evidence. This resembles the hilt on the similarly pommeled espada ancha I posted, and was found in Arizona.
The association is admittedly tenuous, but of course simply a step toward possible regional affinities.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

But this is enough to make those non studious think (some) espadas anchas were made in Toledo .

Very true, even the locals in Alta California writing accounts in those times presumed 'every sword' was made in Toledo. This powerful reputation prevailed in literature and much public thought for centuries...every fine sword/blade was from Toledo....to the point it was almost cliche'.

On the blade on the branched hilt saber I just posted, after TOLEDO is the word Sagaun (I believe) which seems to possibly be a corruption of the famed Sahagum, an often spuriously applied name from that Toledo smith.

[midelburgo]

I believe there are many things mixed in this subject.

First we have the origin of the blades. Until c1808, there was no lack of regular crown blades for the army, made in Barcelona or in Toledo. We can imagine there was even an overflow of them after Galvez campaigns in Louisiana and Florida. Brinckerhoff (plate 166) shows blades from a discovery, without mountings, both cavalry and dragoons, ready to be remounted possibly after 1820. These could be cut down to be infantry weapons. Brinkerhoff has plenty of those because he travelled to Madrid Army museum to complete his research.

Shorter weapons could be had from the navy as well.

As in Spain, we find also Solingen blades, with the motto "no me saques sin razon" or others "Por el rey Carlos III". This were private purchases, by officers and by civilians. There is a very interesting article. GODOY, J. A. (1988): «Modelos de espadas y sables para el ejército y armada de Carlos III». Reales Sitios, nº 98. Here the author has described real size, blades cardboard samples, sent to the court by a Solingen cutler c1775, and nowadays at the Simancas archives. I have seen most of those models in real swords from the period. In Brinckerhoff, plates 168 to 172 are of this type. There are curved and straight, infantry and cavalry.

We have also a lot of blade exports of the Carynthia type (plates 127, 131, 134, 135, etc). Straight, three channeled, these blades are found from Scotland to the Caspian sea and India. They were also later made in Solingen for a century and a half (kaskaras).

A variety of these are blades made after the Mexican Independance in Solingen, combining the three channels with Spanish mottoes and false claims to Toledo with fake dating, but quite often with the real Solingen mark as well (P.KNECHT is a common one). Made in 1830 to 1860 but with a much antique look, and used in the non-government side of the sucesive Mexican revolutions. Example below. The writing can be found in script as in cursive, and are easily mistaken with XVIIIth century blades. If weathered and no Solingen mark is present, the main difference is in the existence of a squarish ricasso, and the regularity of the channels, thinner and closer.

Then we have the blades made locally, usually shorter types, and the types above disfigured beyond recognition, of what little systematics can be done.

About the hilts, they could be done locally, but specially after 1808 when no more supplies from Spain could be had. The more fantastic ones (those with the quillions under the shell) I believe are from later times, about 1850, as the revolutionary commanders mixed their wishes of connection with their people with a (fake or real) Toledo blade.

It is possible to find typical Solingen hilts (three barred, iron) but I believe most blades were sent without mountings and they were provided in Mexico.

So, under Espadas anchas we have many different things, product of a 100 yers of tumultuous warfare in Greater Mexico.

The description I make of the picture above is:
1st one is a cheaper copy of a Brescian hilt, made probably in Europe, 2nd is a 1728 cavalry model from a still unknown factory (I suspect now Trubia, in Northern Spain c1790).
A Cuban machete after 1880 (3rd from the left, Guanabacoa type). 4th, much older hilt than the blade, I can no say sure if is or is not a Espada Ancha. Closely related to number 6th, that I believe is a Brazilian c1840-1860 sword, for long thought to be "moorish" by many antiquarians. There could be an interesting evolutionary relation there. The 5th is very interesting because those grip cylinder types with caps were often used in 1760-1800 by Spanish private officers in infantry and navy, often in silver, but what we have here I believe is a Mexican revolutionary sword from c1850-1860, so a grip making tradition was kept for a century.

[midelburgo]

Lets give a look to the subject of three fullered blades.

I believe this 3 are from Solingen around 1840, made for Mexican market. All marked with the "No me saques" motto, but only the first one marked P.KNECHT (Lunechloss is another common one).

[midelburgo]

These 2 are real XVIIIth century three fullered blades from Spanish 1728 models. Three fullered blades although they exist, are a minority of 1728 blades. Most are non fullered or single fullered.