Eunjangdo

Bob A · 26th June 2022, 06:28 AM

The carving on the silver looks fresh. There's no wear on the edges from carrying. It looks like it was either made recently, or boxed right after being finished and never used or carried.

Given that it seems to have had no use, and that these have not been in regular use since at least WWII era, I'd guess that it is of recent construction, well made in traditional form, but not an artifact of the actual period of use.

It's attractive, and apparently not terribly costly to obtain. It is representative of a tradition, but probably not an actual part of it. As such, it has a place in a collection, within the parameters described. Can it be called a "tourist" item? I don't know, and I admit that such a designation seems faintly pejorative. It does seem to be of some quality, which would elevate it.

I can't judge the quality of the silver, and I'm sufficiently ignorant to say whether it falls within the range typical of such objects, but that might be of interest to those whose knowledge of the subject exceeds my own. (That would be a large group indeed.)

Not very helpful, alas.

ariel · 26th June 2022, 12:21 PM

Joe,
All four of us , yourself and seller included, think that the likelihood of this dagger being a modern creation is very real and pretty high ( IMHO it is 100%).

Does it mean that it is not a legitimate collectible item? Absolutely not. Faithful copy may be simply attractive to a particular collector and buying it is a purely personal decision. Emotions play an important and often decisive role in all of our life choices. We can disagree on the authenticity and age of our stabbers and slashers, but judging the motives of acquiring them is just as fruitless as judging a choice of another person’s spouse. It is easy to contradict all of your arguments in favor of this dagger’s authenticity and age, but this will miss the only salient point: you were simply attracted to it.

I am completely indifferent to even sumptious Indonesian krises no matter how important they might be, but am ready to buy rusty and dirt-simple Indo-Persian swords because of some intriguing ( for me!) minor features that will certainy raise a multitude of eyebrows:-)

You liked it and bought it for a song: enjoy it. It is YOUR collection and only YOU can decide what tickles YOUR fancy.

JoeCanada42 · 27th June 2022, 03:27 AM

well said,
I like something with a mystery that I get to research and learn from, and above all I like something that I think is such a good price, that's what gets into my collection.
yes I do more likely think it is more modern, but how much modern if so does interest me, 90's, 70' 50' 1910??
I think that based on the niello and the blade markings I may be able to find out who made it or where, that would definitely be cool.
I don't want to rule out the 1% chance it is a well preserved older piece
I have higher hopes more for a quality piece at this point then an antique. built for the original purpose,(even if it didn't end up with the original intended owner). if made by a qualified native smith for the sake of keeping up a dying tradition, made the old way,, then its still a real weapon to me. if made identical or even by the same guild or master would be possibly preferable than the same producers older used one .
this feels similar to the story with the kaskara I bought, still very happy with it because its true, even if not antique., yet..
if someone could help with translation if even possible that is, then this would be a great start.

JoeCanada42 · 27th June 2022, 03:33 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqJ2iwnm-U8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Ry_uRIn7o

just found that second link verrrryy inetersing some1 help please?

JoeCanada42 · 27th June 2022, 03:38 AM

translated the description, think it mentions the master died in 2004

ariel · 27th June 2022, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

translated the description, think it mentions the master died in 2004

I think it ends the uncertainty: circa 1970-90 at the earliest. If the seller knew when the original owner lived in Japan, it would be helpful.

BTW, niello cannot serve as a dating instrument, just as the presence of brass cannot serve for the same purpose on Afghani weapons. Niello was used in Europe for centuries, and contemporary Caucasian jewellers are using it till now for the mass-produces silver elements of kindjal handles and scabbards. You can find tons of them on e-bay.
Moreover, it is not niello as your references show application of blackening to the silver elements in Korea. They put the “ substance” on some kind of adhesive tape and attach it to the object. Upon tape removal the parts of silver in contact with the substance become black. Real niello is a mix of sulphur, lead, silver and copper. The paste is applied and then fired. Modern chemistry simplified the process.

A very pretty knife you got. Enjoy it!

26th June 2022, 12:21 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Joe, All four of us , yourself and seller included, think that the likelihood of this dagger being a modern creation is very real and pretty high ( IMHO it is 100%). Does it mean that it is not a legitimate collectible item? Absolutely not. Faithful copy may be simply attractive to a particular collector and buying it is a purely personal decision. Emotions play an important and often decisive role in all of our life choices. We can disagree on the authenticity and age of our stabbers and slashers, but judging the motives of acquiring them is just as fruitless as judging a choice of another person’s spouse. It is easy to contradict all of your arguments in favor of this dagger’s authenticity and age, but this will miss the only salient point: you were simply attracted to it. I am completely indifferent to even sumptious Indonesian krises no matter how important they might be, but am ready to buy rusty and dirt-simple Indo-Persian swords because of some intriguing ( for me!) minor features that will certainy raise a multitude of eyebrows:-) You liked it and bought it for a song: enjoy it. It is YOUR collection and only YOU can decide what tickles YOUR fancy. Last edited by ariel; 26th June 2022 at 06:04 PM.

26th June 2022, 06:28 AM	#1
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 436	The carving on the silver looks fresh. There's no wear on the edges from carrying. It looks like it was either made recently, or boxed right after being finished and never used or carried. Given that it seems to have had no use, and that these have not been in regular use since at least WWII era, I'd guess that it is of recent construction, well made in traditional form, but not an artifact of the actual period of use. It's attractive, and apparently not terribly costly to obtain. It is representative of a tradition, but probably not an actual part of it. As such, it has a place in a collection, within the parameters described. Can it be called a "tourist" item? I don't know, and I admit that such a designation seems faintly pejorative. It does seem to be of some quality, which would elevate it. I can't judge the quality of the silver, and I'm sufficiently ignorant to say whether it falls within the range typical of such objects, but that might be of interest to those whose knowledge of the subject exceeds my own. (That would be a large group indeed.) Not very helpful, alas.

27th June 2022, 03:27 AM	#3
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	well said, I like something with a mystery that I get to research and learn from, and above all I like something that I think is such a good price, that's what gets into my collection. yes I do more likely think it is more modern, but how much modern if so does interest me, 90's, 70' 50' 1910?? I think that based on the niello and the blade markings I may be able to find out who made it or where, that would definitely be cool. I don't want to rule out the 1% chance it is a well preserved older piece I have higher hopes more for a quality piece at this point then an antique. built for the original purpose,(even if it didn't end up with the original intended owner). if made by a qualified native smith for the sake of keeping up a dying tradition, made the old way,, then its still a real weapon to me. if made identical or even by the same guild or master would be possibly preferable than the same producers older used one . this feels similar to the story with the kaskara I bought, still very happy with it because its true, even if not antique., yet.. if someone could help with translation if even possible that is, then this would be a great start.

27th June 2022, 03:33 AM	#4
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqJ2iwnm-U8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Ry_uRIn7o just found that second link verrrryy inetersing some1 help please?

27th June 2022, 03:38 AM	#5
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	translated the description, think it mentions the master died in 2004