Deccan tulwar

[Mercenary]

1. Active bilateral contacts in the 18th century did not lead to the appearance of Chinese weapons in India or imitation of them , but very doubtful sporadic contacts in the 15-16th century did it?
What other Chinese artifacts at that time did not just end up in India, but influenced traditional culture and were borrowed as phenomenon?
2. The humanitarian visits of the fleet in the 15th century could not yet lead to a change in the cultural or any other landscape.
The Chinese Buddhist monks who traveled through India in the 5th-7th centuries would not be a much worse example.
3. Comparison of the guard on an Indian saber with the guard on a straight Chinese sword, the shape and decor of which have completely different semantic connotations besides the fact that Chinese sabers had completely different guards? Seriously?

It just seems from a postmodernist point of view that someone can sail somewhere and sell something there and everything will change at once. It is impossible to apply such an approach to the historical past and especially to traditional societies.

[ariel]

Active Chinese trade in Kollam ( Malabar Coast) was mentioned by Ibn Battuta in XIV century.
Most likely, it started well before that, if it was “active” then:-)
“Postmodernist” is a fancy word beloved by some contemporary literature critics and defined as “ an intellectual stance or mode of discourse defined by an attitude of skepticism toward what it considers as the grand narratives of modernism, an opposition to epistemic certainty and the stability of meaning, and a doubtful perspective towards the usefulness of ideology in changing social systems.” ( see Wikipedia), but what on Earth does it have in common with our topic of discussion?

Chinese traded with India well before XVI century, and any trade results in the appearance of novel things and modifications of the old ones. Had it not been for McDonald’s, you would not have mile long queues to “Vkusno i tochka” in Moscow:-)

[ariel]

Just to put a cherry on top, see Elgood’s chapter on European swords in Deccan( “Sultans of the South” p.218).
On p.223 he cites Simon Digby that evidence by Fakr-i- Mudabbir in in Delhi early 13th century suggests “… a trade in arms extending through the medieval Islamic world from Europe to China”.
And further he brings several examples of Indian preference of European , including English , blades.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Just to put a cherry on top, see Elgood’s chapter on European swords in Deccan( “Sultans of the South” p.218).
On p.223 he cites Simon Digby that evidence by Fakr-i- Mudabbir in in Delhi early 13th century suggests “… a trade in arms extending through the medieval Islamic world from Europe to China”.
And further he brings several examples of Indian preference of European , including English , blades.

I see. It is very similar to the case of the translation of Jahangir-name and the term of "phool-katara". There is nothing in Adab al-habr wa'l-shaja'a (by Fakr-i- Mudabbir in Delhi early 13th century) about trade from Europe to China. Moreover, there is nothing about the superiority of European blades. On the contrary, the author of the manuscript calls Indian swords the best of all kind of swords. Where did you find "several examples of Indian preference of European , including English , blades" in the 13th century?

Yes, the author of the manuscript names some kind of swords known to him: Sinhalese, Khazar, Byzantine, Yemeni, Kashmir, Chinese and even Russian. But, firstly, the manuscript itself is largely a fantasy text (the sword was invented by Jamshid), and secondly, as it is usually in the case of medieval Persian-language manuscripts, it conveys not actual and reliable information, but retells the beliefs and legends of the past or information from previous manuscripts.

Besides, how does this prove that in the 16th century there were Chinese swords in the Deccan or, for example, Russian or Khazar ones? A cherry on top

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

I see. It is very similar to the case of the translation of Jahangir-name and the term of "phool-katara". There is nothing in Adab al-habr wa'l-shaja'a (by Fakr-i- Mudabbir in Delhi early 13th century) about trade from Europe to China. Moreover, there is nothing about the superiority of European blades. On the contrary, the author of the manuscript calls Indian swords the best of all kind of swords. Where did you find "several examples of Indian preference of European , including English , blades" in the 13th century?

Yes, the author of the manuscript names some kind of swords known to him: Sinhalese, Khazar, Byzantine, Yemeni, Kashmir, Chinese and even Russian. But, firstly, the manuscript itself is largely a fantasy text (the sword was invented by Jamshid), and secondly, as it is usually in the case of medieval Persian-language manuscripts, it conveys not actual and reliable information, but retells the beliefs and legends of the past or information from previous manuscripts.

Besides, how does this prove that in the 16th century there were Chinese swords in the Deccan or, for example, Russian or Khazar ones? A cherry on top

Indeed, Fakr-i-Mudabbir's m/s does not extol the superiority of Indian or Chinese blades. Please read carefully: Elgood simply quotes Digby's interpretation of Mudabbir's text as indicative of trade of Mosliem societies with China. Elgood mentions Indian preference for European ( and, after 16 century, British) blades in several other places of his chapter. Elgood's chapter or other sources do not even address the issue whether there were Chinese swords in Deccan in the 16 century. But we just have enough evidence of direct Chinese-Indian trade well before that. Did it include swords or just decorative elements is not well known and deserves investigation by professionals. Neither I nor you can claim this title. Professionalism requires full-time immersion in the subject, adherence to the facts, ability to admit one's errors and respect for the real "gurus". Without the first, one is just a dilettante, but lack of the latter 3 characteristics implies fakery and arrogance that are incompatible with true professionalism.

Please pay attention: in my first post I just asked a very simple question: was the sword of Qutb Quli Shah influenced by Chinese examples? I expected a professional answer. Regretfully, your unsupported and unsupportable pronouncements were quite unhelpful.

One is entitled to his opinions, so please feel free to present them. However, they better be based on facts to be taken seriously.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Professionalism requires full-time immersion in the subject, adherence to the facts, ability to admit one's errors and respect for the real "gurus". Without the first, one is just a dilettante, but lack of the latter 3 characteristics implies fakery and arrogance that are incompatible with true professionalism.

Originally Posted by ariel

One is entitled to his opinions, so please feel free to present them. However, they better be based on facts to be taken seriously.

I agree with you completely.But I'm still trying to understand the quote you provided:

According to Simon Digby, the evidence given by Fakr-i-Mudabbir in Delhi in the early thirteenth century suggests "a trade in arms extending through the medieval Islamic world from Europe to China" with European blades usually being considered sharper and better than Indian ones

Is it correct?

So I have a question. How from the text of the source, which clearly says that of all the existing swords, the best are Indian ones, someone brings out that the best are European (!) and at the same time you add "including English"? The manuscript told about Firangi swords, and there is no mention of "English swords".

But Russian swords are mentioned there (Rusi swords). Then can I conclude, if the rules of science are the same for everyone, that Russian swords were known in India of the 13th century (the author of the manuscript testifies that all the swords he mentioned are good enough), and that in the 13th century a trade of Russian swords was extending through the medieval Islamic world from Europe to China?

[ariel]

Rus has nothing to do with the current definition of Russia: Rus were Normans .
In the 13 century “ Russia’ as a state did not even exist: there were smal solitary city-states ruled by local princes who were all ( except the North) vassalls of the Golden Horde. Local swords were Norman , changed to Mongol sabers, and Peter I tried to convert Russia into a part of Europe and tried to rearm his army with European weapons. The Cossacks armed themselves with Ottoman and Persian sabers. In the early 19 century,as a result of Russo-Caucasian war, shashkas were introduced: aristocracy, royal family included, were prone to carry real Caucasian shashkas, but for the unwashed masses a saber was created and called
“ shashka” despite having nothing common with the original one.
Thus, Russia as such never had a truly national, original sword. Even in the 13 century:-)
As to the sentence you ask about, open the Elgood’s chapter and re-read it. Hopefully, it will help you clarify its meaning.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

There is nothing in Adab al-habr wa'l-shaja'a (by Fakr-i- Mudabbir in Delhi early 13th century) about trade from Europe to China.
Yes, the author of the manuscript names some kind of swords known to him: Sinhalese, Khazar, Byzantine, Yemeni, Kashmir, Chinese and even Russian. But, firstly, the manuscript itself is largely a fantasy text (the sword was invented by Jamshid), and secondly, as it is usually in the case of medieval Persian-language manuscripts, it conveys not actual and reliable information, but retells the beliefs and legends of the past or information from previous manuscripts.

Ya'qûb ibn Ishâq al-Kindi could have sued Fakhr-i Mudabbir for plagiarism. And easily won the case