A Balinese (?)keris for identification please

David · 25th May 2022, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

I was thinking if the warangka could be moose antler. There are already Balinese craftsmen using moose antler for warangka. I kept some moose antler material made Balinese hulu.

For me moose antler has a rather particular look. I don't think this is moose.

A. G. Maisey · 25th May 2022, 04:19 AM

Sid, if I'm right about approximate age of the dress, we can forget moose antler, the international supply network to Bali was a wee bit different 50-60 years ago to what it is now.

Imagine being in Den Pasar and being told that if you want to fly back to Australia you've got a choice between an occasional flight to Darwin, and catching the bus back to Jakarta --- alternatively you can take a boat.

Anthony G. · 25th May 2022, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

For me moose antler has a rather particular look. I don't think this is moose.

I showed it to my good friend and he advised it is not ivory, could be a long bone sliced on the very side of the animal, Looks warangka might be made of animal bone.

Jean · 25th May 2022, 02:04 PM

Hello Sidj,
Please show us detailed pictures of the top part of the warangka (front, rear, and top sides, taken at a right angle) for better identification of the materials.
Regards

SidJ · 25th May 2022, 02:36 PM

Hello,
I am not yet in possession of the keris. It has been described by the auction house as ivory. I know that mistakes can be made though. I will post images when I have it in hand. Apart from the dark patch, ivory seems plausible to me. Of course, it could also be some type of bone. I will be able to tell once I get it.

Jean · 25th May 2022, 08:23 PM

Thank you and yes, ivory materials is very possible but the small pits on the reverse side may indicate bone. By the way the hilt is placed in the reverse position.

SidJ · 27th May 2022, 01:38 PM

What if any are the implications of the atasan being ivory vs it being bone? Can we draw any inferences if it is one or the other? I presume bone is less prestigious than ivory but could this also enable a reassessment of the date of manufacture from the 1970s to earlier in time? Thanks in advance.

Jean · 27th May 2022, 05:34 PM

Yes, an ivory atasan is much more prestigious and expensive than a bone one.
Bone would often decay quickly (more or less depending on the type of bone and the selected piece) so it generally looks older than an ivory one of the same age, except if the ivory piece has not been properly selected

.
See specimens of an ivory atasan (left), and a whale bone one.
Regards

27th May 2022, 05:34 PM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Yes, an ivory atasan is much more prestigious and expensive than a bone one. Bone would often decay quickly (more or less depending on the type of bone and the selected piece) so it generally looks older than an ivory one of the same age, except if the ivory piece has not been properly selected . See specimens of an ivory atasan (left), and a whale bone one. Regards Attached Images

25th May 2022, 04:19 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Sid, if I'm right about approximate age of the dress, we can forget moose antler, the international supply network to Bali was a wee bit different 50-60 years ago to what it is now. Imagine being in Den Pasar and being told that if you want to fly back to Australia you've got a choice between an occasional flight to Darwin, and catching the bus back to Jakarta --- alternatively you can take a boat.

25th May 2022, 02:04 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Sidj, Please show us detailed pictures of the top part of the warangka (front, rear, and top sides, taken at a right angle) for better identification of the materials. Regards

25th May 2022, 02:36 PM	#5
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 207	Hello, I am not yet in possession of the keris. It has been described by the auction house as ivory. I know that mistakes can be made though. I will post images when I have it in hand. Apart from the dark patch, ivory seems plausible to me. Of course, it could also be some type of bone. I will be able to tell once I get it.

25th May 2022, 08:23 PM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you and yes, ivory materials is very possible but the small pits on the reverse side may indicate bone. By the way the hilt is placed in the reverse position.

27th May 2022, 01:38 PM	#7
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 207	What if any are the implications of the atasan being ivory vs it being bone? Can we draw any inferences if it is one or the other? I presume bone is less prestigious than ivory but could this also enable a reassessment of the date of manufacture from the 1970s to earlier in time? Thanks in advance.