BATAK OR BORNEO ???

Nagawarrior · 11th June 2006, 04:36 PM

As far as I know these swords are Batak. Both Tirri and Stone reference them. Here is a picture of mine, with open cup style hilt.

Dajak · 11th June 2006, 07:54 PM

Hi yours looks more a batak sword than the one from vvv

here are some pics that show a dajak batung lupar that did use these swords too

And some pics from an Batak book

VVV · 11th June 2006, 10:03 PM

Hi Dajak,

I am a bit disappointed and don't buy the old open cup/closed cup classification as a 100% indicator of Batak or Borneo origin.
As you know I have f.i. an extremely long Batak PP with a closed cup that once was in your collection.
The other reason, as I described above, was that several of them were popular trade blades produced in India and for them the open/closed cup tell sign doesn't work either.
The famous PP in Tropen was collected among Toba Bataks and has a variation of closed cup.
Also at least 3 of the Batak Piso Podang in the Leiden collection has closed cup (but I suspect two of them are trade blades).
However I agree that most of the time the Borneo Pedang hasn't open cup.
But sometimes the Batak Piso Podang has closed cup...

It's a tricky sword to classify and I think a lot more research has to be done on it.

Michael

Dajak · 11th June 2006, 10:08 PM

Hi Michael that why I started this

I don t now and can tell this is Borneo or Batak

so I think the plain Handles are Batak and the other Borneo

I like to get more information about this too

The one you get from me is for sure Batak it have an plain handle

VVV · 11th June 2006, 10:23 PM

Hi Dajak,

Sorry but I misunderstood your post.
As I wrote I don't think anybody for sure can separate your two swords.
The one with decorated handle could just as well be a trade blade.
The decoration on the Iban Pedang in Leiden, as well as the one in the Iban Art book, is different and more topographic as well as not floral.
But there are unfortunately just not enough documentation on this matter.

Michael

Dajak · 12th June 2006, 03:12 PM

that is right Michael but not only Iban people live on the coast it is well known that the Batang-Lupar did use these swords

So does not have an Iban design

and on an website I did find an decorated one from Borneo but never see an decorated one from the Bataks

Take a look at this Handle this one sure Borneo

VVV · 12th June 2006, 08:14 PM

Dajak,

That's a beautiful and rare Parang Nabur - congratulations on the nice find!
But to make it an indication, or a trend, unfortunately I think you have to find at least five of those that has survived or been documented somehow?
On the people living in the village of Batang Lupar they are classified as Sea Dayaks (Iban) according to Ling Roth.

Michael

11th June 2006, 07:54 PM	#2
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi yours looks more a batak sword than the one from vvv here are some pics that show a dajak batung lupar that did use these swords too And some pics from an Batak book Attached Images

12th June 2006, 03:12 PM	#6
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	that is right Michael but not only Iban people live on the coast it is well known that the Batang-Lupar did use these swords So does not have an Iban design and on an website I did find an decorated one from Borneo but never see an decorated one from the Bataks Take a look at this Handle this one sure Borneo Attached Images

11th June 2006, 04:36 PM	#1
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	As far as I know these swords are Batak. Both Tirri and Stone reference them. Here is a picture of mine, with open cup style hilt.

11th June 2006, 10:03 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Dajak, I am a bit disappointed and don't buy the old open cup/closed cup classification as a 100% indicator of Batak or Borneo origin. As you know I have f.i. an extremely long Batak PP with a closed cup that once was in your collection. The other reason, as I described above, was that several of them were popular trade blades produced in India and for them the open/closed cup tell sign doesn't work either. The famous PP in Tropen was collected among Toba Bataks and has a variation of closed cup. Also at least 3 of the Batak Piso Podang in the Leiden collection has closed cup (but I suspect two of them are trade blades). However I agree that most of the time the Borneo Pedang hasn't open cup. But sometimes the Batak Piso Podang has closed cup... It's a tricky sword to classify and I think a lot more research has to be done on it. Michael

11th June 2006, 10:08 PM	#4
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Michael that why I started this I don t now and can tell this is Borneo or Batak so I think the plain Handles are Batak and the other Borneo I like to get more information about this too The one you get from me is for sure Batak it have an plain handle

11th June 2006, 10:23 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Dajak, Sorry but I misunderstood your post. As I wrote I don't think anybody for sure can separate your two swords. The one with decorated handle could just as well be a trade blade. The decoration on the Iban Pedang in Leiden, as well as the one in the Iban Art book, is different and more topographic as well as not floral. But there are unfortunately just not enough documentation on this matter. Michael

12th June 2006, 08:14 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Dajak, That's a beautiful and rare Parang Nabur - congratulations on the nice find! But to make it an indication, or a trend, unfortunately I think you have to find at least five of those that has survived or been documented somehow? On the people living in the village of Batang Lupar they are classified as Sea Dayaks (Iban) according to Ling Roth. Michael