Calligraphy handled (choora?) dagger

mahratt · 19th May 2022, 11:11 AM

Do I understand correctly that no one considers this item as an expensive souvenir for tourists?

Nobody was embarrassed that the metal parts of the scabbard were not decorated with gold, but at the same time some funny and non-functional part was welded to the bottom part?

fernando · 19th May 2022, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Do I understand correctly that no one considers this item as an expensive souvenir for tourists?

Maybe someone (or so many) does

.

10thRoyal · 19th May 2022, 03:00 PM

Maybe it is just an old blade on a touristy handle but it doesn't make a half bad piece of wall art

ariel · 20th May 2022, 05:50 AM

See " Splendeur des armes orientales", p.119. Slightly more worn out koftgari, attributed to N. India, early 19th century.
The one from 10thRoyal has a blade forged from crystalline wootz , the pattern practically vanished post 17th century.
This is not a very practical weapon due to overfancy handle, likely worn infrequently or just stored in the personal collection of a highly placed person. Intact koftgari would not be unexpected as already mentioned by David R.

10thRoyal: if you were lucky enough to win it, - my congratulations! Ain't no touristy.

Ian · 20th May 2022, 06:39 AM

The similar example noted by ariel notwithstanding, I'm inclined to agree with Mahratt. The scabbard appears to be a poor mate for the apparent quality of the blade and hilt. There seems to be general agreement that this knife was produced for show rather than actual use.

ariel · 20th May 2022, 11:12 AM

Ian,
Scabbards are by and large perishable. Imperial Russian military specified new scabbards for their regulation sabers every 3 years ( or something like it). Active use of swords/daggers requires frequent drawing and sheathing with inevitable damage to the organic components of scabbards. Even simple storage of anything made of wood and leather subjects them to inevitable failure due to temperature, moisture, infestation and rot. It is extremely unusual to find a 200 years old Indian bladed weapon in its original scabbard. Elgood advocates dating Indian swords by looking separately at the blade and the handle. But even he refrained from including scabbards in that equation.
Yes, there appears to be a different quality between the peshkabz as such and its scabbard. But Indian palaces were not climate controlled and even contemporary museums maintain rigid schedule of maintenance.
I am sure we cannot pinpoint the exact ages of this peshkabz as such and its scabbard, but IMHO there is no evidence of a touristy manufacture. On top of it , any recent forger would certainly invest an hour or two for applying a little bit of koftgari to the throat and chapee to pimp up the overall appearance and inflate the price.
Yes, we have to consided the possibility that this peshkabz was made in one of the royal workshops at the end of 19th-beginning of 20th century. But how do we explain its crystalline wootz? Also, such imitations of a respectable age were not touristy: they were aimed for personal royal collections and gifts to visiting dignitaries.
My 5 cents.

mahratt · 20th May 2022, 11:57 AM

There are a lot of daggers for sale on ebay from India with blades made of crystalin Wootz but with new handles. Of course, the scabbard is a consumable item. But it is in these scabbards that the question arises that the metal parts are devoid of decor, and the incomprehensible welded element on the lower part (why is it needed at all? who saw similar elements on the lower parts of the scabbard) is decorated using the koftgari technique similar to the decor of the handle. I have no doubt that there was (and still is) an original item of this form and decor. By the way, as far as I remember, he does not have a scabbard. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But those similar items that have appeared at various auctions in recent years (for example, I saw a similar one at Czerny's auction) are modern copies. Or a combination of antique and modern elements.

My 2 cents.

10thRoyal · 20th May 2022, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

See " Splendeur des armes orientales", p.119. Slightly more worn out koftgari, attributed to N. India, early 19th century.

Ariel, would you be able to post that page? I'd be curious to see it.

20th May 2022, 05:50 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	See " Splendeur des armes orientales", p.119. Slightly more worn out koftgari, attributed to N. India, early 19th century. The one from 10thRoyal has a blade forged from crystalline wootz , the pattern practically vanished post 17th century. This is not a very practical weapon due to overfancy handle, likely worn infrequently or just stored in the personal collection of a highly placed person. Intact koftgari would not be unexpected as already mentioned by David R. 10thRoyal: if you were lucky enough to win it, - my congratulations! Ain't no touristy. Last edited by ariel; 20th May 2022 at 06:03 AM.

20th May 2022, 11:12 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ian, Scabbards are by and large perishable. Imperial Russian military specified new scabbards for their regulation sabers every 3 years ( or something like it). Active use of swords/daggers requires frequent drawing and sheathing with inevitable damage to the organic components of scabbards. Even simple storage of anything made of wood and leather subjects them to inevitable failure due to temperature, moisture, infestation and rot. It is extremely unusual to find a 200 years old Indian bladed weapon in its original scabbard. Elgood advocates dating Indian swords by looking separately at the blade and the handle. But even he refrained from including scabbards in that equation. Yes, there appears to be a different quality between the peshkabz as such and its scabbard. But Indian palaces were not climate controlled and even contemporary museums maintain rigid schedule of maintenance. I am sure we cannot pinpoint the exact ages of this peshkabz as such and its scabbard, but IMHO there is no evidence of a touristy manufacture. On top of it , any recent forger would certainly invest an hour or two for applying a little bit of koftgari to the throat and chapee to pimp up the overall appearance and inflate the price. Yes, we have to consided the possibility that this peshkabz was made in one of the royal workshops at the end of 19th-beginning of 20th century. But how do we explain its crystalline wootz? Also, such imitations of a respectable age were not touristy: they were aimed for personal royal collections and gifts to visiting dignitaries. My 5 cents. Last edited by ariel; 20th May 2022 at 11:23 AM.

19th May 2022, 11:11 AM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Do I understand correctly that no one considers this item as an expensive souvenir for tourists? Nobody was embarrassed that the metal parts of the scabbard were not decorated with gold, but at the same time some funny and non-functional part was welded to the bottom part?

19th May 2022, 03:00 PM	#3
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 79	Maybe it is just an old blade on a touristy handle but it doesn't make a half bad piece of wall art

20th May 2022, 06:39 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	The similar example noted by ariel notwithstanding, I'm inclined to agree with Mahratt. The scabbard appears to be a poor mate for the apparent quality of the blade and hilt. There seems to be general agreement that this knife was produced for show rather than actual use.

20th May 2022, 11:57 AM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	There are a lot of daggers for sale on ebay from India with blades made of crystalin Wootz but with new handles. Of course, the scabbard is a consumable item. But it is in these scabbards that the question arises that the metal parts are devoid of decor, and the incomprehensible welded element on the lower part (why is it needed at all? who saw similar elements on the lower parts of the scabbard) is decorated using the koftgari technique similar to the decor of the handle. I have no doubt that there was (and still is) an original item of this form and decor. By the way, as far as I remember, he does not have a scabbard. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But those similar items that have appeared at various auctions in recent years (for example, I saw a similar one at Czerny's auction) are modern copies. Or a combination of antique and modern elements. My 2 cents.