Bolo with wide blade and t-grip for identification

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:34 PM

The sheath tip, the disc guard; the blade partakes of course of a dha-likeness (dha and parang nabur being somewhat similar and probably related). It's a thought; I like the Canas river thing, too; research; you can't beat it; thanks again.
I think the point about the tattoo is not that it exists, but its central chest placement, which would be atypical in SE Asia (pectoral pairs are more common, or even one pectoral muscle, yes? though I think I've seen central ones; in Borneo? The Japanese tatoos, suposedly placed for concealment under clothing, IMHO actually follow this Pacific "tatoo suit" tradition, BTW). I'm not sure it is a tatoo; it looks almost like a cigarette burn or something on the photo to me. Awfully asymetrical for a SE Asian tatoo. Too bad no access to the original photo, but that's the shakes.

Ian · 28th January 2005, 07:56 PM

One other tidbit not previously mentioned is the square cross section of the handle. Has anyone seen that before? I can't recall any Philippines or other SE Asian weapons with square handles.

Perhaps John, with his knowledge of Sabah and environs, could help with this one. Any thoughts, John?

Andrew · 28th January 2005, 09:02 PM

The square handle is perplexing, Ian. Don't some Ainu weapons have a similar feature? Some Chinese dao I've seen do, as well.

Curiouser and curiouser...

fearn · 28th January 2005, 09:16 PM

Hi Spunjer,

You're not the only one thinking Golden Triangle. The question then is: what tribe? The sheath construction that Hal describes definitely sounds like what some of the daos have, except that instead of being open, with the blade restrained by wrappings, it has a second piece held in place by wrapping.

The other thing I think is fascinating is the apparent piercing at the base of the edge. That seems characteristic too, and unique only through location.

Hmmmm. Neat!

Let's line up what we have:
--Tropical (from clothing--hard to believe he's a highlander and wearing so little)
--Asian (from body type and rice mortar).
--Blade looks like it could be a) a bolo, or b) a dha, but c) it has characteristics of a bunch of things (like the apparent pad on the T-hilt, the piercings on the blade, the square hilt cross-section, and circular guard) that don't often show up together. Similarly, the sheath could be something out of southern Himalayas or Taiwan.
--there's more than one of them, so it's unlikely that some blacksmith put this one together just to annoy blade collectors :-).

If we start drawing circles on maps for each of these traits, do we get overlaps somewhere? Kinibalu? Innermost Laos? Basilan province?

Neat puzzle!

F

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2005, 01:41 AM

This extremely deep bellied chopper type weapon is most intriguing, and I cannot resist being fascinated by the brilliant forensics and observations of everyone on this thread! Excellent deductive reasoning, and very informative.
Since the weapons of these regions are admittedly far out of my field of study,it is a great pleasure to learn from everyone participating here and the knowledge shared.

When I first looked at this incredibly broad bladed chopper, I thought of the Moplah knives and Coorg ayda khatti, which obviously are completely out of sphere in this case. I found an interesting entry in Burton's "Book of the Sword" (p.170, fig. 193) which showed a line drawing of a 'cleaver of the Habshi people' of an island off Bombay, noting these people's ancestry from Zanzibar, again simply a note as this is even more away from the regions we are considering.

I viewed the photo of the native tribesman repeatedly last night, and cannot escape the conclusion that the tribesman is ancestrally Chinese, and appears almost Korean in facial features.
In looking at the weapon, the rattan lashings, hilt, all seem to suggest the Philippines. The broad blade and its curve, while having no direct similarity to the bolo, seem to allude to association by type. The second weapon shown with the 'horned' type hilt and fixture in center give it a three prong appearance such as is similar on the Mandaya weapon. Both of these are of course, as discussed, Philippines weapons. The disc hilt, which seems atypical of Philippine weapons, does allude to Chinese influence, as does the reference to the squared cross section of the grip. The pierced holes in the blades, one with circles and one with triangles, make me think of similar holes that appear in the Dayak parang ihlang (mandau) of Borneo. I believe these holes are often flled with brass, but am unaware of the significance, which I'm sure can be explained by those better versed in these weapons.
As Andrew has mentioned, the lined motif on the back of the blade is seen
on not only Philippine weapons, especially Moro, but on SE Asian as well (I have a Laotian dha with these type linear marks).

The Philippine archipelago is situated in latitude south of China, with the island of Taiwan directly in line closest to the Chinese mainland and further south are many islands comprising the northern part of the archipelago.
It is noted in Encyclopedia Brittanica that "...the people of China are the archipelagos nearest civilized neighbors and the source of far more of its culture than is generally suspected", referring of course to the Phillipines.

Chinese trade with not only Phillipines but continuing to the Indonesian archipelago was constant, so as always, trade and interaction between the mainland and locations throughout provided channels for continuous diffusion and influence. Since the individual we see in the photo seems of more pure Chinese appearance, and the population further south in the Philippines seems to have more pronounced diffusion, I would suggest the possibility of northernmost islands, especially more toward Taiwan, where it has been noted that the rattan lashings on scabbards is more likely on weapons. The similarity of the hilt in gestalt to the Chinese dao may have more plausibility in such regions also. It has been noted that even in Taiwan, there were contacts with with the seagoing Dayaks, and possibly the piercings in the blades may have been influenced by them. The tribes in Taiwan are also noted to trace certain ancestry to Assam, with note of the openly lashed scabbards there and a degree of distant association.

While these observations offer no conclusions, they are simply to add to what has already been presented and I look forward to comments from those here who know this sector of ethnographic weapons exceedingly well.

Best regards,
Jim

John · 29th January 2005, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Perhaps John, with his knowledge of Sabah and environs, could help with this one. Any thoughts, John?

Hi Ian,

I've not seen anything like that in the vicinity or at the state museum and it's likely to be something NOT from Northern Borneo I'd say.

BTW, great picture of you with Dan at the other thread.

Ian · 29th January 2005, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

Hi Ian,

I've not seen anything like that in the vicinity or at the state museum and it's likely to be something NOT from Northern Borneo I'd say.

Thanks, John, for your feedback. My impression also.

We seem to be trying to shoehorn this guy and his bolo into an Asian/SE Asian scene, and I'm still not seeing any hard evidence for such an attribution. Notwithstanding the suggestion he is sitting on a "rice mortar" (I've seen a few, but none like the object this guy is sitting upon), I still don't get a strong sense that the photo is from Asia/SE Asia. We are all making highly intelligent guesses, but coming up empty.

In my personal travels in Asia/SE Asia, including the Golden Triangle area, since the mid-1960s, I've not encountered a similar looking individual or that particular bolo. I have obviously not been to every corner of the region, so it would be nice to hear from others who live or have traveled there and can contribute some first hand experience, if any, on the origin of the photo or the bolo.

Perhaps DA Henkel could help us, with his expereince of the Malay and Indonesian cultures. Any thoughts, Dave.

Ian.

Federico · 29th January 2005, 08:15 PM

As noted in another post by Tom, I also seem to be seeing the word headhunter in the caption of the picture. Are there headhunters in S America? I am not familiar with the tribe in S America.

Hal Siegel · 29th January 2005, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

As noted in another post by Tom, I also seem to be seeing the word headhunter in the caption of the picture. Are there headhunters in S America? I am not familiar with the tribe in S America.

Most famous are the Jivaro/Shuar of the Eucadorian and Peruvian Amazon:

Headhunting: History of the Shuar
http://www.head-hunter.com/index.html

I've take a quick look through the website. Unfortunately, no weapons are depicted ...

Federico · 29th January 2005, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal Siegel

Most famous are the Jivaro/Shuar of the Eucadorian and Peruvian Amazon:

Headhunting: History of the Shuar
http://www.head-hunter.com/index.html

I've take a quick look through the website. Unfortunately, no weapons are depicted ...

Thanks for the link. Looking through the site at the pictures, and then comparing it to the BW picture in the thread, I could see one of the modern color pics, done in BW with the grainy quality of an old pic, there could be some relation.

28th January 2005, 07:56 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Interesting discussion One other tidbit not previously mentioned is the square cross section of the handle. Has anyone seen that before? I can't recall any Philippines or other SE Asian weapons with square handles. Perhaps John, with his knowledge of Sabah and environs, could help with this one. Any thoughts, John?

28th January 2005, 03:34 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The sheath tip, the disc guard; the blade partakes of course of a dha-likeness (dha and parang nabur being somewhat similar and probably related). It's a thought; I like the Canas river thing, too; research; you can't beat it; thanks again. I think the point about the tattoo is not that it exists, but its central chest placement, which would be atypical in SE Asia (pectoral pairs are more common, or even one pectoral muscle, yes? though I think I've seen central ones; in Borneo? The Japanese tatoos, suposedly placed for concealment under clothing, IMHO actually follow this Pacific "tatoo suit" tradition, BTW). I'm not sure it is a tatoo; it looks almost like a cigarette burn or something on the photo to me. Awfully asymetrical for a SE Asian tatoo. Too bad no access to the original photo, but that's the shakes.

28th January 2005, 09:02 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	The square handle is perplexing, Ian. Don't some Ainu weapons have a similar feature? Some Chinese dao I've seen do, as well. Curiouser and curiouser...

28th January 2005, 09:16 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Spunjer, You're not the only one thinking Golden Triangle. The question then is: what tribe? The sheath construction that Hal describes definitely sounds like what some of the daos have, except that instead of being open, with the blade restrained by wrappings, it has a second piece held in place by wrapping. The other thing I think is fascinating is the apparent piercing at the base of the edge. That seems characteristic too, and unique only through location. Hmmmm. Neat! Let's line up what we have: --Tropical (from clothing--hard to believe he's a highlander and wearing so little) --Asian (from body type and rice mortar). --Blade looks like it could be a) a bolo, or b) a dha, but c) it has characteristics of a bunch of things (like the apparent pad on the T-hilt, the piercings on the blade, the square hilt cross-section, and circular guard) that don't often show up together. Similarly, the sheath could be something out of southern Himalayas or Taiwan. --there's more than one of them, so it's unlikely that some blacksmith put this one together just to annoy blade collectors :-). If we start drawing circles on maps for each of these traits, do we get overlaps somewhere? Kinibalu? Innermost Laos? Basilan province? Neat puzzle! F

29th January 2005, 01:41 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	This extremely deep bellied chopper type weapon is most intriguing, and I cannot resist being fascinated by the brilliant forensics and observations of everyone on this thread! Excellent deductive reasoning, and very informative. Since the weapons of these regions are admittedly far out of my field of study,it is a great pleasure to learn from everyone participating here and the knowledge shared. When I first looked at this incredibly broad bladed chopper, I thought of the Moplah knives and Coorg ayda khatti, which obviously are completely out of sphere in this case. I found an interesting entry in Burton's "Book of the Sword" (p.170, fig. 193) which showed a line drawing of a 'cleaver of the Habshi people' of an island off Bombay, noting these people's ancestry from Zanzibar, again simply a note as this is even more away from the regions we are considering. I viewed the photo of the native tribesman repeatedly last night, and cannot escape the conclusion that the tribesman is ancestrally Chinese, and appears almost Korean in facial features. In looking at the weapon, the rattan lashings, hilt, all seem to suggest the Philippines. The broad blade and its curve, while having no direct similarity to the bolo, seem to allude to association by type. The second weapon shown with the 'horned' type hilt and fixture in center give it a three prong appearance such as is similar on the Mandaya weapon. Both of these are of course, as discussed, Philippines weapons. The disc hilt, which seems atypical of Philippine weapons, does allude to Chinese influence, as does the reference to the squared cross section of the grip. The pierced holes in the blades, one with circles and one with triangles, make me think of similar holes that appear in the Dayak parang ihlang (mandau) of Borneo. I believe these holes are often flled with brass, but am unaware of the significance, which I'm sure can be explained by those better versed in these weapons. As Andrew has mentioned, the lined motif on the back of the blade is seen on not only Philippine weapons, especially Moro, but on SE Asian as well (I have a Laotian dha with these type linear marks). The Philippine archipelago is situated in latitude south of China, with the island of Taiwan directly in line closest to the Chinese mainland and further south are many islands comprising the northern part of the archipelago. It is noted in Encyclopedia Brittanica that "...the people of China are the archipelagos nearest civilized neighbors and the source of far more of its culture than is generally suspected", referring of course to the Phillipines. Chinese trade with not only Phillipines but continuing to the Indonesian archipelago was constant, so as always, trade and interaction between the mainland and locations throughout provided channels for continuous diffusion and influence. Since the individual we see in the photo seems of more pure Chinese appearance, and the population further south in the Philippines seems to have more pronounced diffusion, I would suggest the possibility of northernmost islands, especially more toward Taiwan, where it has been noted that the rattan lashings on scabbards is more likely on weapons. The similarity of the hilt in gestalt to the Chinese dao may have more plausibility in such regions also. It has been noted that even in Taiwan, there were contacts with with the seagoing Dayaks, and possibly the piercings in the blades may have been influenced by them. The tribes in Taiwan are also noted to trace certain ancestry to Assam, with note of the openly lashed scabbards there and a degree of distant association. While these observations offer no conclusions, they are simply to add to what has already been presented and I look forward to comments from those here who know this sector of ethnographic weapons exceedingly well. Best regards, Jim

29th January 2005, 08:15 PM	#8
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	As noted in another post by Tom, I also seem to be seeing the word headhunter in the caption of the picture. Are there headhunters in S America? I am not familiar with the tribe in S America.