Bali keris of unknown origin

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2022, 02:29 PM

Thank you for your further explanations Jean.

In respect of the name that might be accurately applied to the top cross part of a wrongko, yes, I was aware of Sutejo Neka's use of "sampir" when I wrote post #18, I have my reasons for disregarding his terminology, and I have given my own reasons for preferring to use a BI term that I have found is not only universally used, but also universally understood.

Djelenga wrote from a Lombok foundation, and I have no personal experience at all in Lombok language or keris terminology. Yes, his book is written in BI, but in this language the word "angkup" is nonsensical as an appropriate word for the object under discussion, which to me seems to indicate that it is a Lombok term, and when we consider Lombok in general, we are looking at a mix of ethnicities and of dialects. Lalu Djelenga was himself Sasak, if I am not mistaken.

Jean, I have not the slightest doubt that you might have a multitude of pink stones ornamenting uwers and other items that have originated in Lombok, but that does not change the fact that pink stones in the uwer of a keris intended for wear in Bali are simply inappropriate.

This is NOT my opinion, it is social fact, which can very easily be checked by having a look at the Balinese Mandala.

I guess we would also need to accept uwers set with pink stones might also originate in Bali these days, but that does not alter the facts as set forth in the Mandala, and the practices followed by culturally conscious wear of the keris in Bali.

I must admit that it does surprise me that you would send these composite parts of the keris to Solo to be put together. Is this usual for collectors in Europe? I have always thought of this sort of simple thing as something that collectors did themselves, more or less as one of the aspects of keris interest. It has certainly given me a great deal of pleasure over the years to carry out restoration work on keris, I find it to be a sort of "active meditation".

EDIT

Immediately after posting the above, I opened an email from a Malaysian friend who lives in KL. He tells me that in Malay the word "sampir" is specific to the top part of a keris scabbard, it seems not to have the various other understandings that it has acquired in other languages that it has entered. I seem to recall that the keris writers who wrote in English back in the days when Peninsula Malaya was under the control of the English, and directly after, commonly used the word "sampir" when referring to the top part of a keris scabbard.

One other word that I have heard some people use in Central Jawa for the top part of the keris scabbard (apart from "gambar") is "awak-awakan", but this is not a word that is specific to that part, as is "sampir" in Malaysia, "awak-awakan" is used to refer to the main part of any object that has been made. So if somebody calls the atasan an "awak-awakan" they are not really naming it, they are describing it, and calling it the "main part" of the scabbard, just as "atasan" describes it & calls it the "top part" of the scabbard.

Ganapati · 18th May 2022, 05:12 AM

This keris must be really beautiful if you all are
Asking me to deface it by removing its amazing handle and sheath lol

Rick · 18th May 2022, 05:32 AM

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2022, 09:23 AM

Yes GP, its a nice keris, these older, classic Bali keris have a presence that i feel is very powerful, however, unfortunately your particular keris has been thoughtlessly dressed. That is no big deal, but in my opinion it is something I personally would correct as soon as possible.

David · 18th May 2022, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ganapati

This keris must be really beautiful if you all are
Asking me to deface it by removing its amazing handle and sheath lol

Well, it is indeed a nice example of the classic late 19th century Bali keris form.
I can only assume you are kidding about the "amazing handle and sheath" part.
If this were mine i believe the easiest thing to do right off is to replace the hilt. You can certainly find a fairly reasonable bondalan style hilt which would be perfectly acceptable. A nicely carved togogan (figural) hilt can cost quite a bit more, though they are not hard to come by if you want to invest the money.
As a collector living in the Western world replacing sheaths is a much more difficult task. I think we all agree that the atasan of your sheath has some age and is sincerely Balinese. So really the trouble with your dress lies mainly in the gandar treatment. It does seem to me that i can see some wood pattern beneath the string wrap. The string seems a bit loose. Can you gently push it aside to create a window and show us a photo of what lies beneath the string. If there is good wood there, as i stated before, i would simply remove the string. This does still leave the culturally incorrect silver fittings (are these real silver of some other alloy?). You could pull off that bottom piece that ends in a buntet like form and see if the wooden gandar still terminates properly. That shouldn't really cause damage if done properly and could easily be put back in place. If you have a good and complete gandar under these fittings a little refinishing could make this a proper sheath again. If not and you are handy with wood craft, the gandar would be the easiest part of a sheath to craft on your own and make the sheath look legit.

17th May 2022, 02:29 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thank you for your further explanations Jean. In respect of the name that might be accurately applied to the top cross part of a wrongko, yes, I was aware of Sutejo Neka's use of "sampir" when I wrote post #18, I have my reasons for disregarding his terminology, and I have given my own reasons for preferring to use a BI term that I have found is not only universally used, but also universally understood. Djelenga wrote from a Lombok foundation, and I have no personal experience at all in Lombok language or keris terminology. Yes, his book is written in BI, but in this language the word "angkup" is nonsensical as an appropriate word for the object under discussion, which to me seems to indicate that it is a Lombok term, and when we consider Lombok in general, we are looking at a mix of ethnicities and of dialects. Lalu Djelenga was himself Sasak, if I am not mistaken. Jean, I have not the slightest doubt that you might have a multitude of pink stones ornamenting uwers and other items that have originated in Lombok, but that does not change the fact that pink stones in the uwer of a keris intended for wear in Bali are simply inappropriate. This is NOT my opinion, it is social fact, which can very easily be checked by having a look at the Balinese Mandala. I guess we would also need to accept uwers set with pink stones might also originate in Bali these days, but that does not alter the facts as set forth in the Mandala, and the practices followed by culturally conscious wear of the keris in Bali. I must admit that it does surprise me that you would send these composite parts of the keris to Solo to be put together. Is this usual for collectors in Europe? I have always thought of this sort of simple thing as something that collectors did themselves, more or less as one of the aspects of keris interest. It has certainly given me a great deal of pleasure over the years to carry out restoration work on keris, I find it to be a sort of "active meditation". EDIT Immediately after posting the above, I opened an email from a Malaysian friend who lives in KL. He tells me that in Malay the word "sampir" is specific to the top part of a keris scabbard, it seems not to have the various other understandings that it has acquired in other languages that it has entered. I seem to recall that the keris writers who wrote in English back in the days when Peninsula Malaya was under the control of the English, and directly after, commonly used the word "sampir" when referring to the top part of a keris scabbard. One other word that I have heard some people use in Central Jawa for the top part of the keris scabbard (apart from "gambar") is "awak-awakan", but this is not a word that is specific to that part, as is "sampir" in Malaysia, "awak-awakan" is used to refer to the main part of any object that has been made. So if somebody calls the atasan an "awak-awakan" they are not really naming it, they are describing it, and calling it the "main part" of the scabbard, just as "atasan" describes it & calls it the "top part" of the scabbard. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 17th May 2022 at 03:05 PM.

18th May 2022, 05:12 AM	#2
Ganapati Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 36	This keris must be really beautiful if you all are Asking me to deface it by removing its amazing handle and sheath lol

18th May 2022, 05:32 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

18th May 2022, 09:23 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes GP, its a nice keris, these older, classic Bali keris have a presence that i feel is very powerful, however, unfortunately your particular keris has been thoughtlessly dressed. That is no big deal, but in my opinion it is something I personally would correct as soon as possible.