Wedung for sharing

David · 14th May 2022, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

One other question, do you have an explanation for the drop like ornamentation on the scabbard? I have seen this on an other wedung scabbard before.

I am reviving this old thread because i accidentally stumbled upon some information that i don't believe has been stated here before. The question surrounding the ornamentation on this sheath has been brought up a few times, but never answered. But i did just come across the name for this motif that is found on many wedhung sheaths. Solyom calls this leaf-shaped feature "kudup turi" The "d" has a dot underneath which as i understand it has since been done away with in Javanese transcription, but indicates a "dh". So perhaps this should be written as "kudhup turi" today.
Anyway, while this doesn't actually solve the mystery, the name could be a possible clue to do so.
Alan, does this help your understanding of this motifs meaning, function or purpose any?

Sajen · 14th May 2022, 09:43 PM

Hello David,

Thank you for bringing up this old thread again.

Yes, we need to call Alan!

In Bahasa Indonesia the translation is "to doze off", no really sense IMVHO!

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2022, 08:23 AM

Detlef, I do not know "kudhup" in BI, neither does Mr Echols nor his mate Mr Shadily. Echols & Shadily has been the recognised BI/English & English/BI dictionary for 60 years.

I know the word "turi" & that is the same in both BI & in Modern Javanese, it is a little tree with pretty pink & white flowers. In fact the shape of the bud of the turi flower is shaped much like this motif on the scabbard.

I know the word "khudup" in Javanese, it means a flower bud... my knowledge of Javanese has improved a bit since 2015.

So "khudup turi" means "bud of the turi flower".

I do not know the symbolic intent of this motif, or if indeed there is one. However, one of the names of the turi flower is Agastya and in ancient India it was considered a sacred flower, Agastya was a respected rishi, or sage.

We eat the young buds raw and the flowers are eaten with pecel (peanut sauce), this turi flower supposedly has some medicinal qualities but I do not know what these are.

One idea that occurs to me about this motif is that it might perhaps symbolise the hierarchical position of the wearer, in that it seems to only appear on princely wedung scabbards and princes are in the position of waiting for somebody to die so that they can blossom into their full potential role. Just an idea, I have never heard this, but it is representative of Javanese thought.

I have never owned nor had the opportunity to purchase a wedung that bore this motif on the scabbard, and I have had and now do have a few old ones, good ones, and ones that were the prerogative of princes. The wedungs I have seen photos of that have this motif on the scabbard all have the appearance of 19th century, perhaps this was a style that was in vogue at some point during the 19th century only.

I have run the phrase "kudhup turi" past a couple of native speakers neither of them can relate anything that might sound like "khudup turi" to the idea of dozing off.

EDIT

I thought I had something in my files about the turi flower, I did have:- the flower is associated with Siwa (Shiva), it is sacred to him, and it is symbolic of the creation of new life, as it represents both the male and female sexual organs.

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2022, 01:25 PM

In an attempt to try to find some Javanese symbolism attached to the turi blossom I asked Dr. Google some pointed questions. I was not successful in finding anything really specific, and I only turned to the Good Doctor after I had already exhausted my own resources. However, in searching I did find a pretty interesting page that deals with the turi tree.

I had never imagined it was such a wonderful tree. Yes, the flowers are pretty tasty along with pecel, but this tree is a real treasure chest.

Try this for size:-

https://www.bimbima.com/ayurveda/med...ora-tree/1248/

naturalist · 19th May 2022, 09:51 AM

Turi putih is a song that written by Sunan Giri (one of the Wali sanga/Wali songo/Wali Sangha). Sunan Giri was born in Blambangan/Banyuwangi in 1442. In this song, turi putih (white turi flower, there is red turi) has meaning as a shroud. All in all, the philosophical meaning of this song is about life, death, and what we brought to the life after death. I guess the previous owner of the wedung was influenced by this song.

A. G. Maisey · 19th May 2022, 12:36 PM

The wedung is worn by certain high ranking members of a kraton hierarchy, in this case the Surakarta Karaton, as a symbol of the wearer's willingness to cut a path through the jungle for his lord, Sinuhun, the Pakubuwono. It is a symbolic tool, it is not a weapon.

naturalist · 20th May 2022, 04:37 AM

The song maybe has similar meaning to our saying: harimau mati meninggalkan belang, gajah mati meninggalkan gading, manusia mati meninggalkan nama" (tiger dies leaving the stripes, elephant dies leaving the tusks, human dies leaving the name). Be good, do the right things, then you will be remembered as a good man

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalist

Turi putih is a song that written by Sunan Giri (one of the Wali sanga/Wali songo/Wali Sangha). Sunan Giri was born in Blambangan/Banyuwangi in 1442. In this song, turi putih (white turi flower, there is red turi) has meaning as a shroud. All in all, the philosophical meaning of this song is about life, death, and what we brought to the life after death. I guess the previous owner of the wedung was influenced by this song.

A. G. Maisey · 20th May 2022, 06:31 AM

Regarding spellings of Javanese words.

I am not Javanese, however, I do have a a 70 year association with Javanese culture & society, the last 50 or so years of that 70 years has been close up & personal, one might say very personal.

When it comes to the spelling of words in any language, this can depend upon the framework within which one is working. This is very evident in English and it is also evident in Javanese, the conventions that we use in spelling might be related to the particular geographic area in which we are located, or the particular level of society in which we need to function.

As for pronunciation, this varies widely across any body of people who use the (supposedly) same language. Many Americans find a great deal of difficulty in understanding my spoken word. Why? Because I have a particularly broad Australian rural accent.

The same is true of the use of the Javanese language, the accent that applies in various parts of Jawa differs & can cause confusion. For example, I know of an example of a woman, a highly educated woman, who moved from Malang in East Jawa to Solo in Central Jawa and initially she had more than a little difficulty in getting her household employees to understand her.

There is a particular difficulty with the Javanese language in that linguists regard it as a non-standard language. Native speakers of Javanese in colloquial speech will change the shape of a word to fit better with the words around it, they do this to make the sound of the spoken passage more pleasant to the ear, or for some other social reason, similarly both vowels & consonants can be changed, provided the intended message is grasped by the listener.

Of course, I am talking about the use of Ngoko here, the same thing does not --- as far as I am aware --- occur in the use Krama Madya, Krama, or Krama Inggil. These are formal languages, Ngoko is colloquial.

So, it is really quite difficult for us to determine what is correct and what is not correct when it comes to the use of the Javanese language in other than a formal setting.

My profession calls for a high degree of accuracy when using the written word. Professionally much of what I have written over the years has finished up in a court room setting, and in this type of situation there is not much wriggle room. In so far as is possible we need to be correct. Thus, I have developed the habit of routine checking of meanings and variants on pronunciations, in order not to err too badly in what I produce for a formal presentation.

Because i am not a native speaker of either Basa Jawa or of Bahasa Indonesia, I often do the same with these languages.

Now, if I look at the word "kudhup" in "Kamus Basa Jawa", Tim Penyusun Balai Bahasa Yogyakarta, I find that this authority does indeed use the inclusive "h" spelling.

As do Robson & Wibisono, and as does Purwadi.

The aspirated "h" does not seem to exist as a common form preceded by "d' in BI, so people who commonly use BI as a means of communication rather than Basa Jawa do seem to adopt a BI form of pronunciation when speaking Javanese. However, at least in Central Jawa, the "d" sound and the "dh" sound is quite distinct.

All this is actually getting a bit too pedantic, there can be wide variation in pronunciations amongst individuals even, however, the fact remains that at least three lexicons all agree on the spelling of "khudup".

How it might be pronounced, well that depends upon the individual and the circumstance.

David · 21st May 2022, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalist

Turi putih is a song that written by Sunan Giri (one of the Wali sanga/Wali songo/Wali Sangha). Sunan Giri was born in Blambangan/Banyuwangi in 1442. In this song, turi putih (white turi flower, there is red turi) has meaning as a shroud. All in all, the philosophical meaning of this song is about life, death, and what we brought to the life after death. I guess the previous owner of the wedung was influenced by this song.

This symbol on this particular wedhung sheath is not a one-off. It can be found again and again on numerous different examples of court wedhung. So this is certainly not the case of a single individual being influenced a this song and deciding he would place one on his own.There is obviously more to it that that.
To be clear, the spelling is not mine, but appears in The Javanese Keris by Garrett Solyom and Bronwen Solyom. There it is written as i originally wrote, as "kuḍup", but with a dot underneath the first "ḍ". When i researched this character with the dot underneath as it applies to the Javanese language i found that this dot is no longer used when transcribing the language and is now written "dh".
"This was used in a former transcription of Javanese, but has been replaced by ⟨dh⟩."
I just want to be clear that NONE of this is MY usage of the word, simply what i discovered in the writing of others. Alan, i have seen you state that the book by the Solyoms is perhaps the only book on keris that does not have any false information so i was hoping this name they attached to this motive found on numerous wedhung was not the exception and that it could possibly lead us to an answer or at least some theories as to the significance of the symbol. Alan, you certainly suggested a couple of possibilities.

A. G. Maisey · 21st May 2022, 08:43 PM

David, Garret's mentor was Go Tik Swan, AKA Panembahan Hardjonegoro(alm.), his principal teacher was a m'ranggi known as "Pak Bei". The period was late 1960's, through to early 1970's.

Nothing in the book authored by Garrett & Bronwen can be considered to be incorrect. There are things in it that are open to disagreement, but this does not mean they are wrong, simply that different people often go to different schools.

As for the symbolism that might be attached to this turi bud, I do not know.

naturalist · 20th May 2022, 04:21 AM

We, the Javanese, pronounce kudup as the pronounciation of "d" in "do" instead of "d" in "doubt", so it should be written as "kudup"

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am reviving this old thread because i accidentally stumbled upon some information that i don't believe has been stated here before. The question surrounding the ornamentation on this sheath has been brought up a few times, but never answered. But i did just come across the name for this motif that is found on many wedhung sheaths. Solyom calls this leaf-shaped feature "kudup turi" The "d" has a dot underneath which as i understand it has since been done away with in Javanese transcription, but indicates a "dh". So perhaps this should be written as "kudhup turi" today.
Anyway, while this doesn't actually solve the mystery, the name could be a possible clue to do so.
Alan, does this help your understanding of this motifs meaning, function or purpose any?

15th May 2022, 08:23 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Detlef, I do not know "kudhup" in BI, neither does Mr Echols nor his mate Mr Shadily. Echols & Shadily has been the recognised BI/English & English/BI dictionary for 60 years. I know the word "turi" & that is the same in both BI & in Modern Javanese, it is a little tree with pretty pink & white flowers. In fact the shape of the bud of the turi flower is shaped much like this motif on the scabbard. I know the word "khudup" in Javanese, it means a flower bud... my knowledge of Javanese has improved a bit since 2015. So "khudup turi" means "bud of the turi flower". I do not know the symbolic intent of this motif, or if indeed there is one. However, one of the names of the turi flower is Agastya and in ancient India it was considered a sacred flower, Agastya was a respected rishi, or sage. We eat the young buds raw and the flowers are eaten with pecel (peanut sauce), this turi flower supposedly has some medicinal qualities but I do not know what these are. One idea that occurs to me about this motif is that it might perhaps symbolise the hierarchical position of the wearer, in that it seems to only appear on princely wedung scabbards and princes are in the position of waiting for somebody to die so that they can blossom into their full potential role. Just an idea, I have never heard this, but it is representative of Javanese thought. I have never owned nor had the opportunity to purchase a wedung that bore this motif on the scabbard, and I have had and now do have a few old ones, good ones, and ones that were the prerogative of princes. The wedungs I have seen photos of that have this motif on the scabbard all have the appearance of 19th century, perhaps this was a style that was in vogue at some point during the 19th century only. I have run the phrase "kudhup turi" past a couple of native speakers neither of them can relate anything that might sound like "khudup turi" to the idea of dozing off. EDIT I thought I had something in my files about the turi flower, I did have:- the flower is associated with Siwa (Shiva), it is sacred to him, and it is symbolic of the creation of new life, as it represents both the male and female sexual organs. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 15th May 2022 at 09:03 AM. Reason: addition

19th May 2022, 09:51 AM	#5
naturalist Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 64	Kudup Turi Turi putih is a song that written by Sunan Giri (one of the Wali sanga/Wali songo/Wali Sangha). Sunan Giri was born in Blambangan/Banyuwangi in 1442. In this song, turi putih (white turi flower, there is red turi) has meaning as a shroud. All in all, the philosophical meaning of this song is about life, death, and what we brought to the life after death. I guess the previous owner of the wedung was influenced by this song.

14th May 2022, 09:43 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Hello David, Thank you for bringing up this old thread again. Yes, we need to call Alan! In Bahasa Indonesia the translation is "to doze off", no really sense IMVHO! Regards, Detlef

15th May 2022, 01:25 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	In an attempt to try to find some Javanese symbolism attached to the turi blossom I asked Dr. Google some pointed questions. I was not successful in finding anything really specific, and I only turned to the Good Doctor after I had already exhausted my own resources. However, in searching I did find a pretty interesting page that deals with the turi tree. I had never imagined it was such a wonderful tree. Yes, the flowers are pretty tasty along with pecel, but this tree is a real treasure chest. Try this for size:- https://www.bimbima.com/ayurveda/med...ora-tree/1248/

19th May 2022, 12:36 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	The wedung is worn by certain high ranking members of a kraton hierarchy, in this case the Surakarta Karaton, as a symbol of the wearer's willingness to cut a path through the jungle for his lord, Sinuhun, the Pakubuwono. It is a symbolic tool, it is not a weapon.

20th May 2022, 06:31 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Regarding spellings of Javanese words. I am not Javanese, however, I do have a a 70 year association with Javanese culture & society, the last 50 or so years of that 70 years has been close up & personal, one might say very personal. When it comes to the spelling of words in any language, this can depend upon the framework within which one is working. This is very evident in English and it is also evident in Javanese, the conventions that we use in spelling might be related to the particular geographic area in which we are located, or the particular level of society in which we need to function. As for pronunciation, this varies widely across any body of people who use the (supposedly) same language. Many Americans find a great deal of difficulty in understanding my spoken word. Why? Because I have a particularly broad Australian rural accent. The same is true of the use of the Javanese language, the accent that applies in various parts of Jawa differs & can cause confusion. For example, I know of an example of a woman, a highly educated woman, who moved from Malang in East Jawa to Solo in Central Jawa and initially she had more than a little difficulty in getting her household employees to understand her. There is a particular difficulty with the Javanese language in that linguists regard it as a non-standard language. Native speakers of Javanese in colloquial speech will change the shape of a word to fit better with the words around it, they do this to make the sound of the spoken passage more pleasant to the ear, or for some other social reason, similarly both vowels & consonants can be changed, provided the intended message is grasped by the listener. Of course, I am talking about the use of Ngoko here, the same thing does not --- as far as I am aware --- occur in the use Krama Madya, Krama, or Krama Inggil. These are formal languages, Ngoko is colloquial. So, it is really quite difficult for us to determine what is correct and what is not correct when it comes to the use of the Javanese language in other than a formal setting. My profession calls for a high degree of accuracy when using the written word. Professionally much of what I have written over the years has finished up in a court room setting, and in this type of situation there is not much wriggle room. In so far as is possible we need to be correct. Thus, I have developed the habit of routine checking of meanings and variants on pronunciations, in order not to err too badly in what I produce for a formal presentation. Because i am not a native speaker of either Basa Jawa or of Bahasa Indonesia, I often do the same with these languages. Now, if I look at the word "kudhup" in "Kamus Basa Jawa", Tim Penyusun Balai Bahasa Yogyakarta, I find that this authority does indeed use the inclusive "h" spelling. As do Robson & Wibisono, and as does Purwadi. The aspirated "h" does not seem to exist as a common form preceded by "d' in BI, so people who commonly use BI as a means of communication rather than Basa Jawa do seem to adopt a BI form of pronunciation when speaking Javanese. However, at least in Central Jawa, the "d" sound and the "dh" sound is quite distinct. All this is actually getting a bit too pedantic, there can be wide variation in pronunciations amongst individuals even, however, the fact remains that at least three lexicons all agree on the spelling of "khudup". How it might be pronounced, well that depends upon the individual and the circumstance.

21st May 2022, 08:43 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	David, Garret's mentor was Go Tik Swan, AKA Panembahan Hardjonegoro(alm.), his principal teacher was a m'ranggi known as "Pak Bei". The period was late 1960's, through to early 1970's. Nothing in the book authored by Garrett & Bronwen can be considered to be incorrect. There are things in it that are open to disagreement, but this does not mean they are wrong, simply that different people often go to different schools. As for the symbolism that might be attached to this turi bud, I do not know.