Bolo with wide blade and t-grip for identification

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:09 PM

Good point about the spinal curve, although I note it's pretty slight curve; I went back to some old threads and couldn't find a Mandaya example with any.
About the "high shinogi" I'm not sure you're correct; it's my impression that this feature is not universal.
Mind you, I'm not saying it is Mandaya; I don't know what it is; I'm saying I see an awful lot of similarities, and I bet something accounts for them. My inclination overall is that this is a form of parang nabur with a hilt similar to a Madaya dagger hilt. I'd sure like to know more. It's got that great helpful provenence; "Philippine 47" on a little paper tag.
BTW: "headhunter......cannibal.....?"

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:15 PM

Thanks, Fearn; I didn't consider we could ID his chair, stupid man that I am.
No, the sheath is not open on any side. It has one long shell that goes it's whole length, while the other shell is only part-length, covering the cavity for the blade; the remaining length being a solid wooden "tail". A small triangular piece at the end of the shorter (back side) shell is an old repair. One corner, as I note is broken off, and this expanded-rectangle sheath-tip also seems SE Asian to me
The edges are lined/wrapped with a "channel" of natural fibre material, either leafs or paper of some kind, then wound over with split giant grass (rattan?) skin. On the front, which is the side we see here, there are thin red and black strips of rattan skin than run lengthwise under this wrapping, and they are otherwise loose to wiggle around.
The sheath appears intended for edge-up wear, if worn as seen in the photo.

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:27 PM

BTW, the look of the musculature on the man's cheeks gives me to suspect he is "making a face" perhaps a formalized toothless smile, much like the Giaconda/Mona Lisa everyone thinks so significant, perhaps sucking on a quid, so I wouldn't try to read any racial/regional data into his lips, not that one can conclusively ID origins that way, of course.

Spunjer · 28th January 2005, 03:27 PM

what about the "golden triangle" (thailand, laos, burma) area? possibilities?

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:34 PM

The sheath tip, the disc guard; the blade partakes of course of a dha-likeness (dha and parang nabur being somewhat similar and probably related). It's a thought; I like the Canas river thing, too; research; you can't beat it; thanks again.
I think the point about the tattoo is not that it exists, but its central chest placement, which would be atypical in SE Asia (pectoral pairs are more common, or even one pectoral muscle, yes? though I think I've seen central ones; in Borneo? The Japanese tatoos, suposedly placed for concealment under clothing, IMHO actually follow this Pacific "tatoo suit" tradition, BTW). I'm not sure it is a tatoo; it looks almost like a cigarette burn or something on the photo to me. Awfully asymetrical for a SE Asian tatoo. Too bad no access to the original photo, but that's the shakes.

Ian · 28th January 2005, 07:56 PM

One other tidbit not previously mentioned is the square cross section of the handle. Has anyone seen that before? I can't recall any Philippines or other SE Asian weapons with square handles.

Perhaps John, with his knowledge of Sabah and environs, could help with this one. Any thoughts, John?

Andrew · 28th January 2005, 09:02 PM

The square handle is perplexing, Ian. Don't some Ainu weapons have a similar feature? Some Chinese dao I've seen do, as well.

Curiouser and curiouser...

fearn · 28th January 2005, 09:16 PM

Hi Spunjer,

You're not the only one thinking Golden Triangle. The question then is: what tribe? The sheath construction that Hal describes definitely sounds like what some of the daos have, except that instead of being open, with the blade restrained by wrappings, it has a second piece held in place by wrapping.

The other thing I think is fascinating is the apparent piercing at the base of the edge. That seems characteristic too, and unique only through location.

Hmmmm. Neat!

Let's line up what we have:
--Tropical (from clothing--hard to believe he's a highlander and wearing so little)
--Asian (from body type and rice mortar).
--Blade looks like it could be a) a bolo, or b) a dha, but c) it has characteristics of a bunch of things (like the apparent pad on the T-hilt, the piercings on the blade, the square hilt cross-section, and circular guard) that don't often show up together. Similarly, the sheath could be something out of southern Himalayas or Taiwan.
--there's more than one of them, so it's unlikely that some blacksmith put this one together just to annoy blade collectors :-).

If we start drawing circles on maps for each of these traits, do we get overlaps somewhere? Kinibalu? Innermost Laos? Basilan province?

Neat puzzle!

F

John · 29th January 2005, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Perhaps John, with his knowledge of Sabah and environs, could help with this one. Any thoughts, John?

Hi Ian,

I've not seen anything like that in the vicinity or at the state museum and it's likely to be something NOT from Northern Borneo I'd say.

BTW, great picture of you with Dan at the other thread.

Ian · 29th January 2005, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

Hi Ian,

I've not seen anything like that in the vicinity or at the state museum and it's likely to be something NOT from Northern Borneo I'd say.

Thanks, John, for your feedback. My impression also.

We seem to be trying to shoehorn this guy and his bolo into an Asian/SE Asian scene, and I'm still not seeing any hard evidence for such an attribution. Notwithstanding the suggestion he is sitting on a "rice mortar" (I've seen a few, but none like the object this guy is sitting upon), I still don't get a strong sense that the photo is from Asia/SE Asia. We are all making highly intelligent guesses, but coming up empty.

In my personal travels in Asia/SE Asia, including the Golden Triangle area, since the mid-1960s, I've not encountered a similar looking individual or that particular bolo. I have obviously not been to every corner of the region, so it would be nice to hear from others who live or have traveled there and can contribute some first hand experience, if any, on the origin of the photo or the bolo.

Perhaps DA Henkel could help us, with his expereince of the Malay and Indonesian cultures. Any thoughts, Dave.

Ian.

28th January 2005, 03:27 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW, the look of the musculature on the man's cheeks gives me to suspect he is "making a face" perhaps a formalized toothless smile, much like the Giaconda/Mona Lisa everyone thinks so significant, perhaps sucking on a quid, so I wouldn't try to read any racial/regional data into his lips, not that one can conclusively ID origins that way, of course. Last edited by tom hyle; 28th January 2005 at 03:42 PM.

28th January 2005, 07:56 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Interesting discussion One other tidbit not previously mentioned is the square cross section of the handle. Has anyone seen that before? I can't recall any Philippines or other SE Asian weapons with square handles. Perhaps John, with his knowledge of Sabah and environs, could help with this one. Any thoughts, John?

28th January 2005, 03:09 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Good point about the spinal curve, although I note it's pretty slight curve; I went back to some old threads and couldn't find a Mandaya example with any. About the "high shinogi" I'm not sure you're correct; it's my impression that this feature is not universal. Mind you, I'm not saying it is Mandaya; I don't know what it is; I'm saying I see an awful lot of similarities, and I bet something accounts for them. My inclination overall is that this is a form of parang nabur with a hilt similar to a Madaya dagger hilt. I'd sure like to know more. It's got that great helpful provenence; "Philippine 47" on a little paper tag. BTW: "headhunter......cannibal.....?"

28th January 2005, 03:15 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Thanks, Fearn; I didn't consider we could ID his chair, stupid man that I am. No, the sheath is not open on any side. It has one long shell that goes it's whole length, while the other shell is only part-length, covering the cavity for the blade; the remaining length being a solid wooden "tail". A small triangular piece at the end of the shorter (back side) shell is an old repair. One corner, as I note is broken off, and this expanded-rectangle sheath-tip also seems SE Asian to me The edges are lined/wrapped with a "channel" of natural fibre material, either leafs or paper of some kind, then wound over with split giant grass (rattan?) skin. On the front, which is the side we see here, there are thin red and black strips of rattan skin than run lengthwise under this wrapping, and they are otherwise loose to wiggle around. The sheath appears intended for edge-up wear, if worn as seen in the photo.

28th January 2005, 03:27 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	what about the "golden triangle" (thailand, laos, burma) area? possibilities?

28th January 2005, 03:34 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The sheath tip, the disc guard; the blade partakes of course of a dha-likeness (dha and parang nabur being somewhat similar and probably related). It's a thought; I like the Canas river thing, too; research; you can't beat it; thanks again. I think the point about the tattoo is not that it exists, but its central chest placement, which would be atypical in SE Asia (pectoral pairs are more common, or even one pectoral muscle, yes? though I think I've seen central ones; in Borneo? The Japanese tatoos, suposedly placed for concealment under clothing, IMHO actually follow this Pacific "tatoo suit" tradition, BTW). I'm not sure it is a tatoo; it looks almost like a cigarette burn or something on the photo to me. Awfully asymetrical for a SE Asian tatoo. Too bad no access to the original photo, but that's the shakes.

28th January 2005, 09:02 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	The square handle is perplexing, Ian. Don't some Ainu weapons have a similar feature? Some Chinese dao I've seen do, as well. Curiouser and curiouser...

28th January 2005, 09:16 PM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Spunjer, You're not the only one thinking Golden Triangle. The question then is: what tribe? The sheath construction that Hal describes definitely sounds like what some of the daos have, except that instead of being open, with the blade restrained by wrappings, it has a second piece held in place by wrapping. The other thing I think is fascinating is the apparent piercing at the base of the edge. That seems characteristic too, and unique only through location. Hmmmm. Neat! Let's line up what we have: --Tropical (from clothing--hard to believe he's a highlander and wearing so little) --Asian (from body type and rice mortar). --Blade looks like it could be a) a bolo, or b) a dha, but c) it has characteristics of a bunch of things (like the apparent pad on the T-hilt, the piercings on the blade, the square hilt cross-section, and circular guard) that don't often show up together. Similarly, the sheath could be something out of southern Himalayas or Taiwan. --there's more than one of them, so it's unlikely that some blacksmith put this one together just to annoy blade collectors :-). If we start drawing circles on maps for each of these traits, do we get overlaps somewhere? Kinibalu? Innermost Laos? Basilan province? Neat puzzle! F