Safavid or qajar blade?

ariel · 23rd April 2022, 03:48 AM

This blade was forged from a high-class KaraTaban, the ultimate variety of Persian bulats.
It came into existence during Safavid dynasry ( perhaps even as early as Shah Abbas I reign and by and large disappeared during the late Qajar dynasty (1789-1925).
Name of Abbas doesn’t help: it was inscribed on multiple swords from various countries and as late as the end of 19 century together with names of Assadulla and Kalb-e Ali, both of whom lived in the 17 century.

Thus, there is no way we can assign this blade to either dynasty with any degree of certainty.
Longitudinally split blades must have been by and large ceremonial: the split segments, especially wootz, were by their very nature very fragile and any strong battlefield contact would fracture them. Perhaps, that was the cause of that blade’s failure. Subsequent rusting did not help.

Drabant1701 · 23rd April 2022, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

This blade was forged from a high-class KaraTaban, the ultimate variety of Persian bulats.
It came into existence during Safavid dynasry ( perhaps even as early as Shah Abbas I reign and by and large disappeared during the late Qajar dynasty (1789-1925).
Name of Abbas doesn’t help: it was inscribed on multiple swords from various countries and as late as the end of 19 century together with names of Assadulla and Kalb-e Ali, both of whom lived in the 17 century.

Thus, there is no way we can assign this blade to either dynasty with any degree of certainty.
Longitudinally split blades must have been by and large ceremonial: the split segments, especially wootz, were by their very nature very fragile and any strong battlefield contact would fracture them. Perhaps, that was the cause of that blade’s failure. Subsequent rusting did not help.

Thanks Ariel! You are a great source of knowledge as allways. You are right it is very hard to asign age ro these blades. Such a large number of blades have the Shah Abbas and Assadulla mark. Is there any blades where there are consensus that it is an actual assadulla blade from the correct period?

ariel · 23rd April 2022, 01:27 PM

Regretfully, none. There are beautiful blades dated within the period of his productive life, but we have no idea how mechanically good they are. The only, perhaps even apocryphal, story of Assadulla’s blades is the one where his sword cut through a helmet undamaged by the blades by other masters.
There is a sarcastic statement that out of the 300 blades he could have produced during his productive life at least 500 with his signature can be found in private European collections.
On top of that, some rather solid researchers suggest that there was no real Assadulla, and that his name was just a claim of superior quality used by a multitude of bladesmiths of widely different abilities.

Mechanically, wootz blades are of uneven quality, but there are many stories of their breakability. Their only unquestionable advantage is the beauty of their superficial patterns.
Old Indian smiths forged their ingots into cristalline pattern (“ salt-and-pepper”) while Ottomans largely produced simple Sham blades. Both groups claimed mechanical superiority of their blades over the Persian ones. But we do not dare testing these claims at the present time.

The pattern of wootz blades depends in large measure upon the technique of forging. Anosov succeeded producing wootz ingots ( industrial espionage, but that is another story), but his instructions were so confusing that after his death his coworkers could not reproduce the feat. Even worse, despite his claims of reproducing all known patterns of wootz, all his existing blades are Sham at best. Even his yataghan sent to Faraday as a plea for recognition has only small area of a weak Sham pattern.

Modern masters all over produce wootz, but the small secrets of forging technique require generations of experience

Thus, the secrets of wootz are still undiscovered, but who needs them? Modern metallurgy produces iron alloys of unquestionably superior quality.

Drabant1701 · 23rd April 2022, 04:45 PM

"Thus, the secrets of wootz are still undiscovered, but who needs them? Modern metallurgy produces iron alloys of unquestionably superior quality."

Back when I started collecting I bought only eropean and american arms, but after seeing wootz for the first time its been all oriental arms. I never ge3t tired of looking at a nice wootz blade

And when I have your atention Ariel, I have this sword with an unmarked wootz blade, its my favorite wootz in my collection and its mounted on indian mounts but I do think the blade is persian. What do you think looking att the wootz in the picture below. Also here is a terrible movie of it https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/702399107

ariel · 23rd April 2022, 10:15 PM

Very, very, very nice!
To distinguish between Indian and Persian manufacture one needs a lot of luck ( Indian masters learned Persian technique sometimes in the 17th century and there were real Persian bladesmiths at the Mughal court and, likely, some private ones too), picture of the entire sword and another one focused at the part of the blade near the handle.

Drabant1701 · 24th April 2022, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Very, very, very nice!
To distinguish between Indian and Persian manufacture one needs a lot of luck ( Indian masters learned Persian technique sometimes in the 17th century and there were real Persian bladesmiths at the Mughal court and, likely, some private ones too), picture of the entire sword and another one focused at the part of the blade near the handle.

Here are more pictures. This blade differs from my other shamshir blades, my other shamshir blades have straight sides but this is curved inwards (hard to explain I made a picture).

ariel · 24th April 2022, 06:02 PM

The blade is highly curved and tapering down to a very sharp tip.
There is no “ indian ricasso”, ie an unsharpened part of the blade adjacent to the quillon block.

Both of them together tell us this blade’s fashion ( and,-highly likely,- its origin): Persia.

Suggest contacting Jens Nordlunde and check whether he still has a copy of his book “A passion for Indian arms”. If you read it carefully it will give you a lot of tips on multiple sources of Indian and on Persian bladed weapons.

23rd April 2022, 04:45 PM	#4
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	"Thus, the secrets of wootz are still undiscovered, but who needs them? Modern metallurgy produces iron alloys of unquestionably superior quality." Back when I started collecting I bought only eropean and american arms, but after seeing wootz for the first time its been all oriental arms. I never ge3t tired of looking at a nice wootz blade And when I have your atention Ariel, I have this sword with an unmarked wootz blade, its my favorite wootz in my collection and its mounted on indian mounts but I do think the blade is persian. What do you think looking att the wootz in the picture below. Also here is a terrible movie of it https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/702399107 Attached Images Last edited by Drabant1701; 23rd April 2022 at 06:57 PM.

23rd April 2022, 03:48 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This blade was forged from a high-class KaraTaban, the ultimate variety of Persian bulats. It came into existence during Safavid dynasry ( perhaps even as early as Shah Abbas I reign and by and large disappeared during the late Qajar dynasty (1789-1925). Name of Abbas doesn’t help: it was inscribed on multiple swords from various countries and as late as the end of 19 century together with names of Assadulla and Kalb-e Ali, both of whom lived in the 17 century. Thus, there is no way we can assign this blade to either dynasty with any degree of certainty. Longitudinally split blades must have been by and large ceremonial: the split segments, especially wootz, were by their very nature very fragile and any strong battlefield contact would fracture them. Perhaps, that was the cause of that blade’s failure. Subsequent rusting did not help.

23rd April 2022, 01:27 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Regretfully, none. There are beautiful blades dated within the period of his productive life, but we have no idea how mechanically good they are. The only, perhaps even apocryphal, story of Assadulla’s blades is the one where his sword cut through a helmet undamaged by the blades by other masters. There is a sarcastic statement that out of the 300 blades he could have produced during his productive life at least 500 with his signature can be found in private European collections. On top of that, some rather solid researchers suggest that there was no real Assadulla, and that his name was just a claim of superior quality used by a multitude of bladesmiths of widely different abilities. Mechanically, wootz blades are of uneven quality, but there are many stories of their breakability. Their only unquestionable advantage is the beauty of their superficial patterns. Old Indian smiths forged their ingots into cristalline pattern (“ salt-and-pepper”) while Ottomans largely produced simple Sham blades. Both groups claimed mechanical superiority of their blades over the Persian ones. But we do not dare testing these claims at the present time. The pattern of wootz blades depends in large measure upon the technique of forging. Anosov succeeded producing wootz ingots ( industrial espionage, but that is another story), but his instructions were so confusing that after his death his coworkers could not reproduce the feat. Even worse, despite his claims of reproducing all known patterns of wootz, all his existing blades are Sham at best. Even his yataghan sent to Faraday as a plea for recognition has only small area of a weak Sham pattern. Modern masters all over produce wootz, but the small secrets of forging technique require generations of experience Thus, the secrets of wootz are still undiscovered, but who needs them? Modern metallurgy produces iron alloys of unquestionably superior quality.

23rd April 2022, 10:15 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Very, very, very nice! To distinguish between Indian and Persian manufacture one needs a lot of luck ( Indian masters learned Persian technique sometimes in the 17th century and there were real Persian bladesmiths at the Mughal court and, likely, some private ones too), picture of the entire sword and another one focused at the part of the blade near the handle.

24th April 2022, 06:02 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The blade is highly curved and tapering down to a very sharp tip. There is no “ indian ricasso”, ie an unsharpened part of the blade adjacent to the quillon block. Both of them together tell us this blade’s fashion ( and,-highly likely,- its origin): Persia. Suggest contacting Jens Nordlunde and check whether he still has a copy of his book “A passion for Indian arms”. If you read it carefully it will give you a lot of tips on multiple sources of Indian and on Persian bladed weapons.