Keris pincit?

jagabuwana · 8th March 2022, 03:39 AM

Thank you Alan for helping us understand this topic and for your time to answer my questions. I'm sure I speak for all of us in saying that we are very grateful.

~~

I see now the difference between tuah and isi, how your teachers understood these two things, and that talismanic qualities are attributed to tuah - not to isi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

. By following these traditional and long established rituals the power of the keris was made obvious by the dhapur & pamor that had been used, and the power of the empu was sufficient to ensure that evil spirits did not enter the keris.

I'd like to check if I understand this part correctly (emphasis added by me).
Does this mean that the talismanic qualities of the keris are not themselves caused by the pamor and dhapur, but the pamor and dhapur act as easy indicators to others about the powers and qualities that the empu intended for the keris?

A. G. Maisey · 8th March 2022, 06:04 AM

I don't know if I can give a straightforward, simple answer to that question JB.

It is the sort of question that might be answered in several ways, by several different people, with several different understandings. I don't believe I've come across this idea before.

The way I understand your idea is that a keris might have been produced by an mpu with the talismanic property of enhancement of authority, however, unless the mpu incorporates a specific form and/or motif into that keris, then nobody will know the talismanic power of the keris.

I think my take on this idea would be this:- all talismans, no matter what they are --- horseshoes, St Christopher medals, or keris --- gain their effect from the faith that the possessor has in the talisman. The effect of the talisman comes from an interaction between the talisman and the holder of the talisman. No belief, no effect.

If this proposition is true, then I am inclined to the belief that if the possessor of the keris --- or other talisman --- had absolute faith in the ability of the maker to bring that talismanic power into a keris, then it would be unnecessary for the maker to incorporate the physical signs into the keris that indicated its talismanic power.

However, without the physical signs of talismanic power, nobody else would know of the power of the keris, so its value would fall when it passed from the first possessor to all following possessors.

In Jawa a keris is considered to be a store of wealth, away & apart from any other qualities it might possess, so by incorporating the physical talismanic sign posts, the mpu ensures that his work, physical as well as spiritual, is recognised for all time.

8th March 2022, 06:04 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	I don't know if I can give a straightforward, simple answer to that question JB. It is the sort of question that might be answered in several ways, by several different people, with several different understandings. I don't believe I've come across this idea before. The way I understand your idea is that a keris might have been produced by an mpu with the talismanic property of enhancement of authority, however, unless the mpu incorporates a specific form and/or motif into that keris, then nobody will know the talismanic power of the keris. I think my take on this idea would be this:- all talismans, no matter what they are --- horseshoes, St Christopher medals, or keris --- gain their effect from the faith that the possessor has in the talisman. The effect of the talisman comes from an interaction between the talisman and the holder of the talisman. No belief, no effect. If this proposition is true, then I am inclined to the belief that if the possessor of the keris --- or other talisman --- had absolute faith in the ability of the maker to bring that talismanic power into a keris, then it would be unnecessary for the maker to incorporate the physical signs into the keris that indicated its talismanic power. However, without the physical signs of talismanic power, nobody else would know of the power of the keris, so its value would fall when it passed from the first possessor to all following possessors. In Jawa a keris is considered to be a store of wealth, away & apart from any other qualities it might possess, so by incorporating the physical talismanic sign posts, the mpu ensures that his work, physical as well as spiritual, is recognised for all time.