Aceh Kris for comment

Gustav · 15th February 2022, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I agree with David, I've not written that the scabbard should get overcleaned but I see a lot of small scratches and a lot of dirt on the scabbard, this is not patination!

Detlef, this is how it would happen with me

:

I want to get rid of the obvious black patches of dirt on wooden parts. I do it. Then the now much more obvious dirt on metal parts starts to annoy me. I try to find a new balance of still left patination on wood and metal parts... and so on. I would surely end up with something, which would look and feel artificial to me, because I have a memory of the piece how it looked before cleaning...

But I surely am much less experienced and less skilled then you in this.

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2022, 12:21 AM

Gustav, as far as wootz goes, I question marked it.

There are a number of types of iron, and looking at the photos of this blade, what I believe I can see is a type of iron that varies from the norm. I might think differently if it was in my hand, but I only have photos to look at, not the actual blade.

This material is not the usual.

Bloomery iron? Maybe. But maybe something else. I don't know.

You assert it is not wootz. You're probably right.

But it is certainly not the usual type of material I'm used to seeing. At this point I'm not prepared to offer an opinion on what it is, I was hoping somebody might have been able offer a valid opinion.

Maybe all I'm seeing is the result of some sort of unique corrosion or cleaning, I don't know.

That is the reason for the question mark.

Can wootz be welded with wrought iron?

I've never had any wootz that I could try that with, but yes, I believe with careful fire control it could be. Put it this way, a lot of wootz blades are welded to an ordinary iron base & tang.

Could this blade be supported as Sedayu classification?

In my opinion no, and for the same reason that it cannot be supported as Banten, or Blambangan, or Surakarta:- the condition is too poor and it is out of stain. Yes, there are some characteristics that might be able to be interpreted as Sedayu, or as half a dozen other classifications, but for a blade in this condition we can only look at the remnant indicators and perhaps lean more towards one classification than another.

But that said, I still tend towards Banten, mind you:- I am not arguing for Banten, I am only saying that if this were in much better condition I believe I could argue for Banten, thus, I tend towards Banten. Not only because of the remaining physical features, but because historically Banten was much more prolific than the other possibilities, and it was also centered around an international trading port.

Gustav · 16th February 2022, 09:17 AM

Alan, thank you very much for your response.

I also noticed the unusual blade surface, and one of possibilities I thought of also was wootz. So I just asked you the questions I had about this possibility after you indicated it as such.

My thought about the surface was, as I wrote, manual cleaning. I meant with it cleaning in dry condition, with something like an awl. For me especially Gonjo and Blumbangan look cleaned that way. But that option alone cannot be the answer - as you say, the material itself is unusual.

(By the way, at the upper ridge of this picture, on left side of the blade, there is one of the few distinct patches of different material I noticed. There seems to be another bigger one at the last Luk on the reverse side. I think, it's Pamor material and what we mainly see is just the Slorok left.)

Sajen · 16th February 2022, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Detlef, this is how it would happen with me

:

I want to get rid of the obvious black patches of dirt on wooden parts. I do it. Then the now much more obvious dirt on metal parts starts to annoy me. I try to find a new balance of still left patination on wood and metal parts... and so on. I would surely end up with something, which would look and feel artificial to me, because I have a memory of the piece how it looked before cleaning...

But I surely am much less experienced and less skilled then you in this.

Hello Gustav,

I know what you mean!

I don't know if you ever have worked with 000 steel wool, it's not hardly abrasive and what it removes will be only very recent dirt. The scratches and blotches are very distracting in my humble opinion.

So I am every time very careful with my tips regarding cleaning and maintenance.
I agree with you 100% that an overcleaning by this keris would be a shame.

But the handle should be clean in the cavities.

Regards,
Detlef

16th February 2022, 09:17 AM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Alan, thank you very much for your response. I also noticed the unusual blade surface, and one of possibilities I thought of also was wootz. So I just asked you the questions I had about this possibility after you indicated it as such. My thought about the surface was, as I wrote, manual cleaning. I meant with it cleaning in dry condition, with something like an awl. For me especially Gonjo and Blumbangan look cleaned that way. But that option alone cannot be the answer - as you say, the material itself is unusual. (By the way, at the upper ridge of this picture, on left side of the blade, there is one of the few distinct patches of different material I noticed. There seems to be another bigger one at the last Luk on the reverse side. I think, it's Pamor material and what we mainly see is just the Slorok left.) Attached Images

16th February 2022, 12:21 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Gustav, as far as wootz goes, I question marked it. There are a number of types of iron, and looking at the photos of this blade, what I believe I can see is a type of iron that varies from the norm. I might think differently if it was in my hand, but I only have photos to look at, not the actual blade. This material is not the usual. Bloomery iron? Maybe. But maybe something else. I don't know. You assert it is not wootz. You're probably right. But it is certainly not the usual type of material I'm used to seeing. At this point I'm not prepared to offer an opinion on what it is, I was hoping somebody might have been able offer a valid opinion. Maybe all I'm seeing is the result of some sort of unique corrosion or cleaning, I don't know. That is the reason for the question mark. Can wootz be welded with wrought iron? I've never had any wootz that I could try that with, but yes, I believe with careful fire control it could be. Put it this way, a lot of wootz blades are welded to an ordinary iron base & tang. Could this blade be supported as Sedayu classification? In my opinion no, and for the same reason that it cannot be supported as Banten, or Blambangan, or Surakarta:- the condition is too poor and it is out of stain. Yes, there are some characteristics that might be able to be interpreted as Sedayu, or as half a dozen other classifications, but for a blade in this condition we can only look at the remnant indicators and perhaps lean more towards one classification than another. But that said, I still tend towards Banten, mind you:- I am not arguing for Banten, I am only saying that if this were in much better condition I believe I could argue for Banten, thus, I tend towards Banten. Not only because of the remaining physical features, but because historically Banten was much more prolific than the other possibilities, and it was also centered around an international trading port.