Dagger for Identification

Battara · 15th February 2022, 12:42 AM

However I have never seen one with a fullered blade like this. Otherwise, I agree with Martino.

Jerseyman · 15th February 2022, 06:15 AM

Thanks. I'd never seen one with such an extreme handle, nor with a fullered blade, so hadn't thought of that classification.

A. G. Maisey · 15th February 2022, 06:18 AM

Yes, it has some characteristics of a badik, & I guess we need to call it a badik, but I've never seen even a photo of a badik that looks like this.

kai · 15th February 2022, 01:28 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

I've never seen even a photo of a badik that looks like this.

See the example in Albert's book: p. 27, fig. 24 is quite typical.

I have 2 of these coming in - let me try to add pics later.

Regards,
Kai

Helleri · 15th February 2022, 04:50 PM

That looks like it's been shoddily repaired. If it were something I had in my possession, I'd be tempted to carefully pry that cracked bit off. Remove the blade and wadding. Pour in some hot rosin and reset that tang. Then a little bone glue and watch band pins for the chipped piece of horn. Finish off that handle with a little light sanding and a few coats of lanolin...Looks like a fun project piece really.

kai · 15th February 2022, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Thanks. I'd never seen one with such an extreme handle, nor with a fullered blade, so hadn't thought of that classification.

Yes, it definitely is a badik from Sulawesi: This blade shape with a pronounced belly as well as the steeply angled/curving hilt suggest that it originates from the region of Lompobattang.

Most badik are meant for punching and come with slender, agile blades. Some of those blades with more pronounced belly have more heft to them and can feel more like a small meat cleaver. Adding a fuller makes sense if the balance needs to be improved.

Pretty much all antique badik from Sulawesi sport laminated or even pattern-welded blades (i.e. with pamor). It would be worth checking this example even if it most likely is monosteel.

From the craftsmanship and attaching the tang with paper/textile, I'd guess this piece hails from the first half of the 20th century, possibly around WW2.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 15th February 2022, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Yes, it definitely is a badik from Sulawesi: This blade shape with a pronounced belly as well as the steeply angled/curving hilt suggest that it originates from the region of Lompobattang.

Kai is correct, a badik from Lompobattang, another example is shown by "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" on p. 351-352.

Sajen · 15th February 2022, 04:49 PM

Here are my two examples, got them recently, still need to etch them, both are laminated. Blades with fullers seems not uncommon, see my small example.

kai · 16th February 2022, 12:10 AM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

Here are my two examples, got them recently, still need to etch them, both are laminated. Blades with fullers seems not uncommon, see my small example.

Yes, narrow (and shallow) fullers are seen. Multiple, too.

It's this wide fuller which is a bit more unusual IMHO...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2022, 12:33 AM

Kai, what I said in my initial post was that I have never seen even a photo of badik that looks like this one.

In spite of the photos of Sulawesi badiks that Detlef posted, I still have not seen a photo of a badik that looks like this one.

Yes, I agree there is a very approximate, very broad similarity in overall form, but also outstanding significant differences, not only in the blade, but also in the hilt & the scabbard.

I'm guessing that the reason I cannot come right out and give you my total agreement with you is that with weaponry that has an agreed standard form, when I see variation from that standard form my mind tells me I'm seeing something different. Possibly the reason for this mindset is my strong background in Javanese keris & weaponry. If it doesn't fit, it is different.

I definitely do not have any suggestions in respect of where or when this item under discussion might have originated, and I definitely do not have intention of trying to convince you & Detlef that it is not what you believe it to be.

But for me, it is a one off.

Sajen · 15th February 2022, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

From the craftsmanship and attaching the tang with paper/textile, I'd guess this piece hails from the first half of the 20th century, possibly around WW2.

Hello Kai,

I am with Helleri here, the attachment of the hilt with paper or textile will be a repair.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 15th February 2022, 08:40 PM

Kai & Detlef, gentlemen, the examples shown by Detlef do indeed have an overall appearance similar to the dagger that is the subject of this thread, however, perhaps you & I look at very different things:- to me this dagger of Jerseyman is very, very different to the examples you have shown.

The examples shown are well known and relatively common:- I have had a number of them over the years, and I think I still might have some, but to my eye, they vary strongly from JM's dagger.

In fact, I have seen custom made knives produced by makers in USA & Australia that resemble JM's dagger more closely than does the typical Sulawesi badik with the Beer Belly.

kai · 15th February 2022, 11:50 PM

G'day Alan,

Perhaps you could be a bit more specific which differences you feel have the strongest impact in your opinion?

Except for the wide fuller already discussed, the other unusual feature would be the choil.

OTOH, the other blades seem to be antique and I posit that this blade might well be younger.

Anyway, the fittings clearly support a Lompobattang origin... Any alternative suggestions?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 16th February 2022, 12:05 AM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

I am with Helleri here, the attachment of the hilt with paper or textile will be a repair.

Not necessarily a repair; it could also point to an assembly at a period when these were not meant to be functional weapons anymore.

I was just mentioning it as a supporting indicator for a possible later date. (It certainly doesn't exclude a later period than suggested by me.)

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 16th February 2022, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Not necessarily a repair; it could also point to an assembly at a period when these were not meant to be functional weapons anymore.

Hello Kai,
They are still made as functional weapons I guess, I've seen 2006 a Bugis wearing a badik, near Makassar.

And I own a fairly recent example, well made but clearly used.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2022, 10:50 PM

Detlef, my first post was #5, what I wrote was this:-

"Yes, it has some characteristics of a badik, & I guess we need to call it a badik, but I've never seen even a photo of a badik that looks like this."

If others think it is a badik, and I cannot give a better name for it, I'm happy to call it badik.

But I'm equally happy to call it a "dagger" or anything else that two or more other people can agree on.

kai · 20th February 2022, 06:49 PM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

They are still made as functional weapons I guess, I've seen 2006 a Bugis wearing a badik, near Makassar.

While the function as weapon never got retired, badik had the same function as keris in tanah Jawa. Thus, wearing a badik could have been due to many and possibly multiple reasons. Like for most people still carrying a knife every day nowadays, any possible weapon function is likely the least realized function (if ever)...

I was not implying that this badik got manufactured without any real use in mind. However, whenever the current tang attachment was chosen, I doubt that any heavy use (neither as tool nor as weapon) was intended. This may point to a later date but does not imply that other badik from the same period were not attached with some local sort of cutler's resin.

Regards,
Kai

15th February 2022, 04:49 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Here are my two examples, got them recently, still need to etch them, both are laminated. Blades with fullers seems not uncommon, see my small example. Attached Images

15th February 2022, 12:42 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	However I have never seen one with a fullered blade like this. Otherwise, I agree with Martino.

15th February 2022, 06:15 AM	#2
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Thanks. I'd never seen one with such an extreme handle, nor with a fullered blade, so hadn't thought of that classification.

15th February 2022, 06:18 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes, it has some characteristics of a badik, & I guess we need to call it a badik, but I've never seen even a photo of a badik that looks like this.

15th February 2022, 04:50 PM	#5
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	That looks like it's been shoddily repaired. If it were something I had in my possession, I'd be tempted to carefully pry that cracked bit off. Remove the blade and wadding. Pour in some hot rosin and reset that tang. Then a little bone glue and watch band pins for the chipped piece of horn. Finish off that handle with a little light sanding and a few coats of lanolin...Looks like a fun project piece really.

16th February 2022, 12:33 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Kai, what I said in my initial post was that I have never seen even a photo of badik that looks like this one. In spite of the photos of Sulawesi badiks that Detlef posted, I still have not seen a photo of a badik that looks like this one. Yes, I agree there is a very approximate, very broad similarity in overall form, but also outstanding significant differences, not only in the blade, but also in the hilt & the scabbard. I'm guessing that the reason I cannot come right out and give you my total agreement with you is that with weaponry that has an agreed standard form, when I see variation from that standard form my mind tells me I'm seeing something different. Possibly the reason for this mindset is my strong background in Javanese keris & weaponry. If it doesn't fit, it is different. I definitely do not have any suggestions in respect of where or when this item under discussion might have originated, and I definitely do not have intention of trying to convince you & Detlef that it is not what you believe it to be. But for me, it is a one off.

15th February 2022, 08:40 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Kai & Detlef, gentlemen, the examples shown by Detlef do indeed have an overall appearance similar to the dagger that is the subject of this thread, however, perhaps you & I look at very different things:- to me this dagger of Jerseyman is very, very different to the examples you have shown. The examples shown are well known and relatively common:- I have had a number of them over the years, and I think I still might have some, but to my eye, they vary strongly from JM's dagger. In fact, I have seen custom made knives produced by makers in USA & Australia that resemble JM's dagger more closely than does the typical Sulawesi badik with the Beer Belly.

15th February 2022, 11:50 PM	#13
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	G'day Alan, Perhaps you could be a bit more specific which differences you feel have the strongest impact in your opinion? Except for the wide fuller already discussed, the other unusual feature would be the choil. OTOH, the other blades seem to be antique and I posit that this blade might well be younger. Anyway, the fittings clearly support a Lompobattang origin... Any alternative suggestions? Regards, Kai

16th February 2022, 10:50 PM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Detlef, my first post was #5, what I wrote was this:- "Yes, it has some characteristics of a badik, & I guess we need to call it a badik, but I've never seen even a photo of a badik that looks like this." If others think it is a badik, and I cannot give a better name for it, I'm happy to call it badik. But I'm equally happy to call it a "dagger" or anything else that two or more other people can agree on.