Sumatra keris with ivory parts

Paul B. · 8th February 2022, 12:55 PM

New suggestions are welcome concerning this keris.

Jean · 8th February 2022, 01:31 PM

The selut is Minang but the hilt, blade, and scabbard/ pendok rather look Bugis Riau or Peninsular to me

Other opinions are welcome

Paul B. · 8th February 2022, 02:08 PM

Same observations. Maybe the dress is additional, even if the ganja with silverfoil usually sticks out to demonstrate wealth. Anyway, to me still puzzling.

Paul B. · 13th February 2022, 08:25 AM

Meanwhile I know that handle and pendokok have been exchanged by the former owner. Preferably change it with an appropriate pendokok and a more upright handle? What handle would come into your mind Jean?

Jean · 13th February 2022, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

Meanwhile I know that handle and pendokok have been exchanged by the former owner. Preferably change it with an appropriate pendokok and a more upright handle? What handle would come into your mind Jean?

I would not change anything as the origin of the keris is uncertain and the various parts match reasonably well, although the hilt is a bit oversized as compared to the sampir.

However if you prefer, you may fit a smaller East Sumatra pangulu hilt or anak ayam/ pipi teleng hilt, see pics.

Wijaya34 · 1st January 2023, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

New suggestions are welcome concerning this keris.

It looks like a 'rejang lebong' keris to me. These type of kerises are popular in the Bengkulu region of sumatra.

Gavin Nugent · 26th January 2023, 04:51 AM

I don't feel this is anything but Elephant ivory where the sampir is concerned... looking at the hulu, I suspect the same source.

I've a much bigger Sundang sampir with the same external recess seen on the one face. Unlike this example, it is a single piece. This led me to some deeper study some time ago, simply because of the size, I could see no other option other than tusk. Digging in to Sperm whale teeth, the largest sizes and the hollow underside just didn't add up.

Here are some images and a good article from which one of the images was drawn from for this thread.

Gavin

Linky; https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...2020+tusks.pdf

SidJ · 26th January 2023, 10:13 AM

I agree with Gavins comment. I own a couple of large sperm whale teeth. They are hollow. I cannot see how the hulu can be whale tooth. The scabbard is elephant t me. It is not whale tooth and not bone. The hulu is also likely elephant. Dugong may be a possibility too.

kai · 26th January 2023, 12:21 PM

Hello Sid,

All teeth that keep growing are hollow and have such a conical pulp cavity.

This hilt is way too large for dugong.

Given the cementum layer visible on both sides of the hilt (back and base - check first pics), I'd still vote for spermwhale - even if it would need to come from a really huge male...

If they had a good chunk for the crosspiece, I just can't fathom why they added additional material on both sides... (On one side only would be less work and look better IMHO.)

Regards,
Kai

SidJ · 26th January 2023, 12:34 PM

Kai
Sperm whale teeth have huge and deep hollows. I have a very large antique tooth from whaling times. There is no way there is enough material to carve a hulu from it. I think unless there is more to support sperm whale tooth this is only speculation.

SidJ · 26th January 2023, 12:38 PM

Sperm whale tooth

kai · 26th January 2023, 05:04 PM

Hello Sid,

Quote:

Sperm whale teeth have huge and deep hollows. I have a very large antique tooth from whaling times. There is no way there is enough material to carve a hulu from it.

Your example is not a representative example - possibly from more towards the base of the jaw? I suppose it got scrapped because there was not enough material for real use.

Here are examples of more typical working teeth including a huge one from Moby Dick...

Regards,
Kai

8th February 2022, 12:55 PM	#1
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	New suggestions are welcome concerning this keris. Attached Images

26th January 2023, 04:51 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I don't feel this is anything but Elephant ivory where the sampir is concerned... looking at the hulu, I suspect the same source. I've a much bigger Sundang sampir with the same external recess seen on the one face. Unlike this example, it is a single piece. This led me to some deeper study some time ago, simply because of the size, I could see no other option other than tusk. Digging in to Sperm whale teeth, the largest sizes and the hollow underside just didn't add up. Here are some images and a good article from which one of the images was drawn from for this thread. Gavin Linky; https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...2020+tusks.pdf Attached Images

26th January 2023, 12:38 PM	#11
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 207	Sperm whale tooth Attached Images

8th February 2022, 01:31 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The selut is Minang but the hilt, blade, and scabbard/ pendok rather look Bugis Riau or Peninsular to me Other opinions are welcome

8th February 2022, 02:08 PM	#3
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Same observations. Maybe the dress is additional, even if the ganja with silverfoil usually sticks out to demonstrate wealth. Anyway, to me still puzzling.

13th February 2022, 08:25 AM	#4
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Meanwhile I know that handle and pendokok have been exchanged by the former owner. Preferably change it with an appropriate pendokok and a more upright handle? What handle would come into your mind Jean?

26th January 2023, 10:13 AM	#8
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 207	I agree with Gavins comment. I own a couple of large sperm whale teeth. They are hollow. I cannot see how the hulu can be whale tooth. The scabbard is elephant t me. It is not whale tooth and not bone. The hulu is also likely elephant. Dugong may be a possibility too.

26th January 2023, 12:21 PM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Sid, All teeth that keep growing are hollow and have such a conical pulp cavity. This hilt is way too large for dugong. Given the cementum layer visible on both sides of the hilt (back and base - check first pics), I'd still vote for spermwhale - even if it would need to come from a really huge male... If they had a good chunk for the crosspiece, I just can't fathom why they added additional material on both sides... (On one side only would be less work and look better IMHO.) Regards, Kai

26th January 2023, 12:34 PM	#10
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 207	Kai Sperm whale teeth have huge and deep hollows. I have a very large antique tooth from whaling times. There is no way there is enough material to carve a hulu from it. I think unless there is more to support sperm whale tooth this is only speculation.