A Small Sword for Comments (Sister to Napoleon's Sword?)

[awdaniec666]

Remarkable! As you said, this is certainly not a reproduction. The crown on the pommel looks very much like a british variant. Maybe somebody here recognizes it.
On your place I would be very tempted to remove the brass patina, how do you see it?

[corrado26]

I think it is a French item, the eagles on a "cigar" are typical during the 1. empire.

[Interested Party]

I would love to see the whole piece

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I would love to see the whole piece

Yes ... please do !

[efrahjalt]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

On your place I would be very tempted to remove the brass patina, how do you see it?

I typically reluctant to do much cleaning on pieces. In this case it looks like there may have been some cleaning in the past. In a few places I can see the hilt was originally gold plated, but much of that is gone now. It could probably benefit from a light cleaning though.

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I would love to see the whole piece

Thank you for the reminder. No sword discussion is complete without a shot of the whole thing. Looking back I see that my pictures are not the greatest. I was too focused on getting the marks in the shot. Here are a few slightly betting shots. The fineness of the carving still does not come though it the pictures. There are fine textures to the leaves and scrolls that are almost invisible in the pictures, but I hope it gives an idea.

Again, comments are welcome.

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting smallsword Efrahjalt, and nicely done tentative research, thank you for sharing those details with us and for posting this.

Samuel Harvey and his sons of Birmingham were key in the advance of British swordmaking in the mid 18th century, but they were engaged in the production of munitions grade military swords. While later Birmingham makers such as Gill, Osborne and Wooley did produce swords in accord with the military patterns beginning in unofficially in 1788, they were never producers of smallswords as far as I am aware.

The production of smallswords was typically by cutlers in London and several other locations, many of these cutlers were also jewellers (check Southwick).
The hilt was likely quite likely gilt, and cutlers typically used hall marks on such hilts (again Southwick).

The H4 was probably administrative stock number or of that sort.

I am pleased to see you do not tamper with patination, which in my opinion should be left as is (my historian position) and cleaning, especially overcleaning which compromises the integrity of the piece (again my opinion).

I think this very well may be a commemorative sword celebrating the victory at Waterloo, which was a practice in Great Britain post Napoleonic campaigns. I once had M1803 infantry officers lionhead, which instead of the flowing mane, had one with a sphinx like headdress.

Here I would note that the eagle from the standard of the French 45th Regt. captured by Sgt. Ewart of Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo would have been an unsurprising theme on a sword for a British officer. The blade has similar etched motif to British officers swords, and the hilt form is of court sword style of the period.

"London Silver Hilted Swords", Leslie Southwick, 2001

[efrahjalt]

Thanks for your comments Jim! Now I have a new book to add to my 'I want that' list. If I may ask, are there any listings for a similar AB mark in Southwick?

I really feel like the both the S-H and AB mark should be searchable since they are quite distinct marks. Hopefully I can track them down since they may give more hints to the origin of this piece.

Another thing I'd love to know is if the Museo Oro del sword also has the same AB mark or the S-H mark. Anyone here from Lima?

I think the idea of a commemorative sword makes sense. Any idea of who was getting these this type of piece made, or do you know of any similar examples?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by efrahjalt

Thanks for your comments Jim! Now I have a new book to add to my 'I want that' list. If I may ask, are there any listings for a similar AB mark in Southwick?

I really feel like the both the S-H and AB mark should be searchable since they are quite distinct marks. Hopefully I can track them down since they may give more hints to the origin of this piece.

Another thing I'd love to know is if the Museo Oro del sword also has the same AB mark or the S-H mark. Anyone here from Lima?

I think the idea of a commemorative sword makes sense. Any idea of who was getting these this type of piece made, or do you know of any similar examples?

You bet!
I'll check Southwick when I get to it again, not with me at the moment. It seems I was researching a brass hilt item and it was noted that makers had to stamp hilts much as with hallmarks in cases but cant recall details.
This is an intriguing anamoly and it would interesting to know more on the sword in Peru. You should get hold of the museum to discover the provenance and possible clues.

[awdaniec666]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...patination, which in my opinion should be left as is (my historian position) and cleaning, especially overcleaning which compromises the integrity of the piece (again my opinion).

Jim, I would love to hear more about a historians view on aging signs, how you deal with corrosion, patina etc. .

Would you mind opening a thread discussing this topic, starting with your point of view on it? Could be also here if it fits the original discussion but I think this is something a lot of people are thinking about and maybe have something to share. I´d really appreciate some insight!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

Jim, I would love to hear more about a historians view on aging signs, how you deal with corrosion, patina etc. .

Would you mind opening a thread discussing this topic, starting with your point of view on it? Could be also here if it fits the original discussion but I think this is something a lot of people are thinking about and maybe have something to share. I´d really appreciate some insight!

Thank you, that is a great suggestion, and a subject often brought up (rather constantly actually) on these pages over the many years writing here.
As I am indeed someone who studies history, my opinion is always to leave as much patination as possible, and even items that are in essentially relic or excavated condition should remain as is as much as possible excepting minor repair to complete the overall composition. . In most cases the physical aspects of the components, metal etc. reflect important information pertaining to age however without scientific analysis, most of that is from comparison to other items in kind, or the context or provenance of the item being examined.

The only cleaning should be lightly removing grime, stabilizing any corrosion or rust. The weapons I have collected over many years have remained as is.
Only light rubbing with fine steel wool and WD40 in pitted areas on hilts revealed key regimental markings etc.

I am by no means a professional, as in a museum, where conservation is more detailed stabilizing and limited restoration is accomplished. These processes are far more complex to preserve the item as close to its intact condition as possible.

Items which are heavily (overcleaned) are in my opinion compromised as the patination is in my opinion, virtually history itself in a sense, and should be left intact as much as possible.

As I say, this has been often discussed over many years, and my position on this is pretty well known, as well as apparently shared by many others who write here. Great topic, and very grateful for your interest!!! Thank you.

[efrahjalt]

Originally Posted by corrado26

I think it is a French item, the eagles on a "cigar" are typical during the 1. empire.

Corrado,

The last picture is Napoleon's sword from the Museo Oro del. Mine doesn’t have the eagle.