African (?) knife

drac2k · 18th January 2022, 03:16 AM

Yvain, sorry about the late reply; the blade is 16" long x 2" wide with a total length of 21" long.

RobT · 18th January 2022, 08:46 PM

Sajen & Ian,

Although the bolster/ricasso feature is found on faca de ponta more often than not, it is not always present as can be seen in the top three examples from my collection and therefore can't be considered a defining characteristic. My fourth example shows a faca with a ricasso but without a brass (or silver) overlay and thus matches the African examples on Wodimi's site. It is interesting to note that, in the three faca without a bolster/ricasso, a short, thick bolster integral with the blade serves as a tip for the hilt ferrule. My faca with the ricasso has a conical shaped integral bolster at the end of the ferrule. Examination (under bright light and magnification) of the other five faca in my collection (all of which have the bolster/ricasso feature) shows only one with a short, thick, integral bolster.
PS: The brass sheath for the third faca may or may not be original to the piece but it fits perfectly.

Sajen,
When I saw your post about Wodimi's excellent site, I immediately put it into my desktop favorites folder only to discover that it was already there from a previous search I had done about the very topic we are now discussing.

Sincerely,
RobT

Yvain · 21st January 2022, 08:49 PM

Thanks for the measurements Drac2k ! And no worries, as you can see, I was away for some days too !

David, very pertinent remark, convergent evolution and perceived similarities can be very misleading in this field, especially when dealing with weapon with such strong cultural influences.

Martin, good catch with the scabbard, I can definitely see the similarities.

Anyway, I'm still digging through online museum collections, I'll let you know if I find anything. Maybe Tim could tell us more about his theory ?

Yvain · 19th July 2022, 07:08 PM

Adding some very interesting information! This is an extract from "La Collection d'armes orientales de Pierre Loti" by Stéphane Pradines, showing an extremely similar weapon! Loti's collection is well documented and we know that this knife was acquired in Senegal. Considering this, as well as the two other known examples on this forum, I think we have good reasons to consider those knives as a type in itself of Senegalese / Malika origin.

RobT · 26th July 2022, 01:19 AM

Hi All,

So what we have here are three examples of possibly Spanish knives showing African influence and in African sheaths or three examples of possibly African knives in African sheaths and showing Spanish influence. Since the Moors were a power in Spain until the fall of Granada in 1492 (when Columbus sailed the ocean blue), there can be no doubt that they influenced Spanish material culture as heavily as the Spanish influenced the material culture of North Africa. This two-way street quite possibly resulted in knives that both Spanish and Northern Africans were comfortable with and that, in some instances, are virtually impossible to tell apart.

Sincerely,
RobT

18th January 2022, 08:46 PM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 547	Not a Consistant Feature Sajen & Ian, Although the bolster/ricasso feature is found on faca de ponta more often than not, it is not always present as can be seen in the top three examples from my collection and therefore can't be considered a defining characteristic. My fourth example shows a faca with a ricasso but without a brass (or silver) overlay and thus matches the African examples on Wodimi's site. It is interesting to note that, in the three faca without a bolster/ricasso, a short, thick bolster integral with the blade serves as a tip for the hilt ferrule. My faca with the ricasso has a conical shaped integral bolster at the end of the ferrule. Examination (under bright light and magnification) of the other five faca in my collection (all of which have the bolster/ricasso feature) shows only one with a short, thick, integral bolster. PS: The brass sheath for the third faca may or may not be original to the piece but it fits perfectly. Sajen, When I saw your post about Wodimi's excellent site, I immediately put it into my desktop favorites folder only to discover that it was already there from a previous search I had done about the very topic we are now discussing. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

19th July 2022, 07:08 PM	#4
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	Adding some very interesting information! This is an extract from "La Collection d'armes orientales de Pierre Loti" by Stéphane Pradines, showing an extremely similar weapon! Loti's collection is well documented and we know that this knife was acquired in Senegal. Considering this, as well as the two other known examples on this forum, I think we have good reasons to consider those knives as a type in itself of Senegalese / Malika origin. Attached Images

26th July 2022, 01:19 AM	#5
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 547	Who Influenced Whom? Hi All, So what we have here are three examples of possibly Spanish knives showing African influence and in African sheaths or three examples of possibly African knives in African sheaths and showing Spanish influence. Since the Moors were a power in Spain until the fall of Granada in 1492 (when Columbus sailed the ocean blue), there can be no doubt that they influenced Spanish material culture as heavily as the Spanish influenced the material culture of North Africa. This two-way street quite possibly resulted in knives that both Spanish and Northern Africans were comfortable with and that, in some instances, are virtually impossible to tell apart. Sincerely, RobT

18th January 2022, 03:16 AM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,258	Yvain, sorry about the late reply; the blade is 16" long x 2" wide with a total length of 21" long.

21st January 2022, 08:49 PM	#3
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	Thanks for the measurements Drac2k ! And no worries, as you can see, I was away for some days too ! David, very pertinent remark, convergent evolution and perceived similarities can be very misleading in this field, especially when dealing with weapon with such strong cultural influences. Martin, good catch with the scabbard, I can definitely see the similarities. Anyway, I'm still digging through online museum collections, I'll let you know if I find anything. Maybe Tim could tell us more about his theory ?