Persian KILIJ

Tea · 27th December 2021, 06:50 PM

Thanks for the replies,
Now I have the blade in my possession I can post a few more detailed pictures. Maybe those will help to determine it's true origin.

a few points I'd like to make:
The handle:
there is indeed little doubt that the handle was remade.

the blade:
- can someone translate the inscriptions?
- the first third back end of the blade (the straight part) was originallaly decorated with koftgari only a few remnants of gold remain as wel as a 3D flower. This was probably intended to show of some koftgari even while the saber was fitted inside the scabbard.
The design was probably very similar to what can be seen near the yelman with the same 3D flower mirrored (but with gold inlay still present)

the scabbard and the crossguard:
- a few remnants of koftgari gold inlay are still present on the eyelets. All eyelets seem to be decorated similarly on both sides I took a picture of the best preserved side and tried to draw what I can make of the few remnants thar are still visible.
- It seems that the leather is interupted at each eyelet
so we have bottom piece of leather at the chape/eyelet/other piece of leather in between/eyelet/piece of leather near the throat (without stitching)
- I see no traces of an old piece of metal chape on the bottom piece of leather. (no visible difference of aging)
- the throat of the scabbard seems to be decorated with gold covered parchment?

It's not very clear to me whether the top part of the scabbard was redone or whether some metal fittings are missing. What's certain however is that the leather at the top, near the throat of the scabbard is not in the same state as the rest of scabbard. either because it aged differently (covered at some point? / glued istead of stitched) or because it was remade. What are you opinions about this?

Richard G · 29th December 2021, 02:00 PM

Could it be something made/put together in Afghanistan?
Regards
Richard

Interested Party · 29th December 2021, 02:42 PM

To my eye the blade looks like it has been resharpened many times. The natural curve of the belly flattens. It is not a bad thing, the shape to me tells a story.

O. Baskurt · 31st January 2022, 10:41 PM

It has a very nice 18th / 19th century Ottoman Pala blade with Qajar guard but blade itself definitely Ottoman one. Qajar variations has different specs on blade as David shared in up comment and forms are differnt even there are some more more close looking blades to Ottomans but their form differencies are easily visible by eye.

Tea · 18th March 2022, 09:00 PM

Hi Thanks for the comments.
@ Baskurt Do you mean that the blad was probably made in the ottoman Empire even though the blade was used in Persia
Or do you mean the combination is highly unusual and thus the guard and braces where never meant to go with this blade.

I clearly see a difference indeed between the blades shown on the other pictures which, I guess are supposed to be made in Persia and the blade of this topic.

What would be your opinion on the sabre pictured hereunder.

BTW any Idea who could help with the translation. Any way to determine whether the inscription is ottoman or Persian?

27th December 2021, 06:50 PM	#1
Tea Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 15	Thanks for the replies, Now I have the blade in my possession I can post a few more detailed pictures. Maybe those will help to determine it's true origin. a few points I'd like to make: The handle: there is indeed little doubt that the handle was remade. the blade: - can someone translate the inscriptions? - the first third back end of the blade (the straight part) was originallaly decorated with koftgari only a few remnants of gold remain as wel as a 3D flower. This was probably intended to show of some koftgari even while the saber was fitted inside the scabbard. The design was probably very similar to what can be seen near the yelman with the same 3D flower mirrored (but with gold inlay still present) the scabbard and the crossguard: - a few remnants of koftgari gold inlay are still present on the eyelets. All eyelets seem to be decorated similarly on both sides I took a picture of the best preserved side and tried to draw what I can make of the few remnants thar are still visible. - It seems that the leather is interupted at each eyelet so we have bottom piece of leather at the chape/eyelet/other piece of leather in between/eyelet/piece of leather near the throat (without stitching) - I see no traces of an old piece of metal chape on the bottom piece of leather. (no visible difference of aging) - the throat of the scabbard seems to be decorated with gold covered parchment? It's not very clear to me whether the top part of the scabbard was redone or whether some metal fittings are missing. What's certain however is that the leather at the top, near the throat of the scabbard is not in the same state as the rest of scabbard. either because it aged differently (covered at some point? / glued istead of stitched) or because it was remade. What are you opinions about this? Attached Images

18th March 2022, 09:00 PM	#5
Tea Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 15	Hi Thanks for the comments. @ Baskurt Do you mean that the blad was probably made in the ottoman Empire even though the blade was used in Persia Or do you mean the combination is highly unusual and thus the guard and braces where never meant to go with this blade. I clearly see a difference indeed between the blades shown on the other pictures which, I guess are supposed to be made in Persia and the blade of this topic. What would be your opinion on the sabre pictured hereunder. BTW any Idea who could help with the translation. Any way to determine whether the inscription is ottoman or Persian? Attached Images

29th December 2021, 02:00 PM	#2
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	Could it be something made/put together in Afghanistan? Regards Richard

29th December 2021, 02:42 PM	#3
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 491	To my eye the blade looks like it has been resharpened many times. The natural curve of the belly flattens. It is not a bad thing, the shape to me tells a story.

31st January 2022, 10:41 PM	#4
O. Baskurt Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 11	It has a very nice 18th / 19th century Ottoman Pala blade with Qajar guard but blade itself definitely Ottoman one. Qajar variations has different specs on blade as David shared in up comment and forms are differnt even there are some more more close looking blades to Ottomans but their form differencies are easily visible by eye.