Singhalese kastane.. Or... is it?

ariel · 7th June 2006, 12:36 AM

Vandoo got this one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
He owes us an explanation

Rick · 7th June 2006, 12:42 AM

But it did not meet reserve .........

ariel · 7th June 2006, 12:56 AM

Yup,you are right.... I have to count my brain cells again...
Still, who wants to go first?

VANDOO · 7th June 2006, 12:59 AM

YEP GAVE IT MY BEST SHOT WHICH WAS MORE THAN SHOWN AS I STILL DIDN'T MEET RESERVE. I SUSPECT IT IS FROM CEYLON/ SIRI LANKA WITH DUTCH INFLUENCE BUT JUDGEING FROM THE BLADE NOT DUTCH MADE. IF THE HANDLE IS JADE IT IS A RATHER STRANGE LOOKING TYPE I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF JADE WAS AVAILABLE OR USED IN CEYLON

AT ANY RATE I LIKED IT AND IF IT WAS PUT TOGETHER FROM DIFERENT PARTS IT WAS WELL ENOUGH DONE AND NOT A RECENT CONSTRUCTION. I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING QUITE LIKE IT UP TILL NOW AND WOULD HAVE BEEN THRILLED TO HAVE LANDED IT FOR THE PRICE SHOWN ON EBAY. BUT ALAS IT WAS NOT TO BE

not2sharp · 7th June 2006, 02:31 AM

It looks like a composite piece. Perhaps all the more interesting since it crosses cultural lines.

n2s

Andrew · 7th June 2006, 03:14 AM

Come on, Ariel. Tell them...

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2006, 06:18 AM

This interesting piece, although it has certain loose similiarity to the kastane, or some interpretation of it, appears to me a European hunting hanger. The odd greenish grip may be stained horn. It seems that greened coloration was something that was popular on various hangers and weapons of the gentry during the 18th century, but need to search more for verification of that.

In "Swords, Daggers and Cutlasses" (G. Weland, 1991, p.45) the author illustrates a German hunting sabre dated 1658, with virtually the same type guard wuth upswept knuckleguard, and short downturned quillon. The hilt grip shape is also similar, flaring out more at the pommel, and typical of both English and Continental hangers of the period. The author becomes even more specific, noting that this hilt form is of the 'old Franconian style'. While it is unclear exactly how that term is intended, the region known as Franconia was a medieval duchy in Germany situated in the valley of the Main River.
I found another example of one of these hunting swords, same hilt quillon arrangement in "Hunting Weapons" (Howard Blackmore, 1971, fig. 12) shown as German, dated 1654.
The zoomorphic guard seems to represent probably griffins. The rather crude floral motif on the blade seems unusually rough, and the linear curved or semi circle motif seems possibly a stylized perception of the familiar Genoese/Styrian sickle marks.
Curious about the drilled hole near the base of the blade, and what that might be for.
Most interesting piece and though reminiscent of these 17th century examples, is more likely 18th century . More research in other resources may reveal other similar hilts with these smooth and simple grips. I really have never seen any of these using jade, but of course they may be out there!!

Best regards,
Jim

ingelred · 7th June 2006, 10:23 AM

I don't think that this is a German hunting sword.
At first I have never seen this kind of blade decoration on an German blade.
Second, hunting swords were made for noble people in Germany.
I don't think that anyone of these had accepted a forging flaw as can be seen on the depicted blade.
Moreover the guard, the quillon decoration and the silver and brass/gold? work do look Singhalese to me.

Just my two cents.

Greetings, Helge

not2sharp · 7th June 2006, 12:06 PM

This example looks to have been cobbled together from three separate parts:
1) The blade remind me of some post war tourist machetes that used to turn up in the 70s wearing crudely carved round wooden scabbards and handles. IIRC The whole looked a bit like a dha.
2) The guard looks like it was salvaged off a real Kastane
3) The handle looks like it may have once been part of a carving knife set.

n2s

ariel · 7th June 2006, 01:47 PM

OK, I think it is Thai. And, since it is a saber-like, it should be called Krabi (or Kassi, per Egerton

)
The blade is of typical "Dha" form with , again, typical semicircular incisions.
The handle looks very similar to the one from Leeds Armoury. I photographed it through the glass....
I thought it would be an unusual example.

Ian · 7th June 2006, 02:14 PM

The tang seems to pass through the length of the handle and there is a cap at the end of the hilt. This feature and the shape of the grip look very European. I don't see anything here that would distinguish Dutch from British from French Colonial influences, although this particular dealer specializes in items from former Dutch possessions, so that seems a fair guess.

The marks on the blade do resemble some of those seen on Thai darb, but also markings seen in parts of Borneo and elsewhere in SE Asia.

The Dutch were not prominent in mainland SE Asia, so if this is a Dutch Colonial sword my guess would be it is from further east -- Indonesia or Borneo. The only Singhalese feature is the guard. We have seen similar guards on colonial swords from Indonesia (there was one on eBay recently), and there is a really tacky modern sword-like object that makes a frequent appearance on eBay and also has this style of guard in the shape of a dragon.

Ian.

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2006, 03:51 AM

You guys are good!!!!!

I dug out my trusty kastane, and that guard is most definitely kastane.... not griffins, but makara. The difference is of course the descending makaras and langets below the crossguard are not present as on the normal kastane guard.
While the overall appearance certainly resembles the European/German hunting swords I was looking at, the blade as noted could not possibly be German or European.
The grip does seem to resemble something European however, and again, as noted, possibly from either a hanger or even part of the trousse.

I agree that this seems an assembled piece in reviewing the observations you have all made.......now the question is, could this be a piece assembled in 18th-19th c. possibly from regions in the trade sphere of Dutch EIC or other powers in Indonesia or SE Asia?

It seems that it's getting harder to find homogenous items any more, or items that the elements have been together since it's working life. Clearly, with weapons that were moderately used, damage and wear would take it's toll and it is rare to find many weapon forms that have not been refurbished any number of times during working life.

Best regards,
Jim

Mark · 8th June 2006, 05:11 PM

The blade decoration is reminiscent of Thai work to me, also, but I agree with Ian that the blade is not likely Thai. For one thing, note that the scolloped decoration is all in the same direction, rather than being a series of alternating curves up and down - so it looks like waves rather than a sinuous vine-like line. And I think the widening at the forte, where the hole is, definately precludes a Thai origin.

The guard is so much like that of a kastane that it must at the very least have been directly inspired by it.

I think the forging flaws are the result of poor welding between layers in a laminated blade, since they trace a more-or-less continuous line along the length of the blade.

That's about all I have.

Titus Pullo · 9th June 2006, 07:02 AM

That thing is gorgeous! Looks a sound design, too.

VANDOO · 9th June 2006, 07:44 AM

IT IS LIKELY WE WILL SEE IT AGAIN AS MY HIGH BID WAS NOT ENOUGH FOR THE SELLER. I HAVE COOLED OFF SOME AND WILL NOT TRY FOR IT AGAIN. I FELT MY OFFER WAS THE TOP AS IT HAS NO SCABBARD,I CAN'T TELL IF ITS JADE OR NOT AND I ALSO FEEL IT WAS PUT TOGETHER FROM PARTS OF OTHER WEAPONS AND I WISH IT HAD A BETTER BLADE. I DO LIKE THE LOOK OF IT THOUGH AND THINK IT WAS NOT PUT TOGETHER RECENTLY.

7th June 2006, 12:36 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Singhalese kastane.. Or... is it? Vandoo got this one. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 He owes us an explanation

7th June 2006, 12:06 PM	#9
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	This example looks to have been cobbled together from three separate parts: 1) The blade remind me of some post war tourist machetes that used to turn up in the 70s wearing crudely carved round wooden scabbards and handles. IIRC The whole looked a bit like a dha. 2) The guard looks like it was salvaged off a real Kastane 3) The handle looks like it may have once been part of a carving knife set. n2s Last edited by not2sharp; 7th June 2006 at 12:18 PM.

7th June 2006, 01:47 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, I think it is Thai. And, since it is a saber-like, it should be called Krabi (or Kassi, per Egerton ) The blade is of typical "Dha" form with , again, typical semicircular incisions. The handle looks very similar to the one from Leeds Armoury. I photographed it through the glass.... I thought it would be an unusual example. Attached Images

7th June 2006, 12:42 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	But it did not meet reserve .........

7th June 2006, 12:56 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yup,you are right.... I have to count my brain cells again... Still, who wants to go first?

7th June 2006, 12:59 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YEP GAVE IT MY BEST SHOT WHICH WAS MORE THAN SHOWN AS I STILL DIDN'T MEET RESERVE. I SUSPECT IT IS FROM CEYLON/ SIRI LANKA WITH DUTCH INFLUENCE BUT JUDGEING FROM THE BLADE NOT DUTCH MADE. IF THE HANDLE IS JADE IT IS A RATHER STRANGE LOOKING TYPE I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF JADE WAS AVAILABLE OR USED IN CEYLON AT ANY RATE I LIKED IT AND IF IT WAS PUT TOGETHER FROM DIFERENT PARTS IT WAS WELL ENOUGH DONE AND NOT A RECENT CONSTRUCTION. I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING QUITE LIKE IT UP TILL NOW AND WOULD HAVE BEEN THRILLED TO HAVE LANDED IT FOR THE PRICE SHOWN ON EBAY. BUT ALAS IT WAS NOT TO BE

7th June 2006, 02:31 AM	#5
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	It looks like a composite piece. Perhaps all the more interesting since it crosses cultural lines. n2s

7th June 2006, 03:14 AM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Come on, Ariel. Tell them...

7th June 2006, 06:18 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This interesting piece, although it has certain loose similiarity to the kastane, or some interpretation of it, appears to me a European hunting hanger. The odd greenish grip may be stained horn. It seems that greened coloration was something that was popular on various hangers and weapons of the gentry during the 18th century, but need to search more for verification of that. In "Swords, Daggers and Cutlasses" (G. Weland, 1991, p.45) the author illustrates a German hunting sabre dated 1658, with virtually the same type guard wuth upswept knuckleguard, and short downturned quillon. The hilt grip shape is also similar, flaring out more at the pommel, and typical of both English and Continental hangers of the period. The author becomes even more specific, noting that this hilt form is of the 'old Franconian style'. While it is unclear exactly how that term is intended, the region known as Franconia was a medieval duchy in Germany situated in the valley of the Main River. I found another example of one of these hunting swords, same hilt quillon arrangement in "Hunting Weapons" (Howard Blackmore, 1971, fig. 12) shown as German, dated 1654. The zoomorphic guard seems to represent probably griffins. The rather crude floral motif on the blade seems unusually rough, and the linear curved or semi circle motif seems possibly a stylized perception of the familiar Genoese/Styrian sickle marks. Curious about the drilled hole near the base of the blade, and what that might be for. Most interesting piece and though reminiscent of these 17th century examples, is more likely 18th century . More research in other resources may reveal other similar hilts with these smooth and simple grips. I really have never seen any of these using jade, but of course they may be out there!! Best regards, Jim

7th June 2006, 10:23 AM	#8
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	I don't think that this is a German hunting sword. At first I have never seen this kind of blade decoration on an German blade. Second, hunting swords were made for noble people in Germany. I don't think that anyone of these had accepted a forging flaw as can be seen on the depicted blade. Moreover the guard, the quillon decoration and the silver and brass/gold? work do look Singhalese to me. Just my two cents. Greetings, Helge

7th June 2006, 02:14 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	The tang seems to pass through the length of the handle and there is a cap at the end of the hilt. This feature and the shape of the grip look very European. I don't see anything here that would distinguish Dutch from British from French Colonial influences, although this particular dealer specializes in items from former Dutch possessions, so that seems a fair guess. The marks on the blade do resemble some of those seen on Thai darb, but also markings seen in parts of Borneo and elsewhere in SE Asia. The Dutch were not prominent in mainland SE Asia, so if this is a Dutch Colonial sword my guess would be it is from further east -- Indonesia or Borneo. The only Singhalese feature is the guard. We have seen similar guards on colonial swords from Indonesia (there was one on eBay recently), and there is a really tacky modern sword-like object that makes a frequent appearance on eBay and also has this style of guard in the shape of a dragon. Ian.

8th June 2006, 03:51 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	You guys are good!!!!! I dug out my trusty kastane, and that guard is most definitely kastane.... not griffins, but makara. The difference is of course the descending makaras and langets below the crossguard are not present as on the normal kastane guard. While the overall appearance certainly resembles the European/German hunting swords I was looking at, the blade as noted could not possibly be German or European. The grip does seem to resemble something European however, and again, as noted, possibly from either a hanger or even part of the trousse. I agree that this seems an assembled piece in reviewing the observations you have all made.......now the question is, could this be a piece assembled in 18th-19th c. possibly from regions in the trade sphere of Dutch EIC or other powers in Indonesia or SE Asia? It seems that it's getting harder to find homogenous items any more, or items that the elements have been together since it's working life. Clearly, with weapons that were moderately used, damage and wear would take it's toll and it is rare to find many weapon forms that have not been refurbished any number of times during working life. Best regards, Jim

8th June 2006, 05:11 PM	#13
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	The blade decoration is reminiscent of Thai work to me, also, but I agree with Ian that the blade is not likely Thai. For one thing, note that the scolloped decoration is all in the same direction, rather than being a series of alternating curves up and down - so it looks like waves rather than a sinuous vine-like line. And I think the widening at the forte, where the hole is, definately precludes a Thai origin. The guard is so much like that of a kastane that it must at the very least have been directly inspired by it. I think the forging flaws are the result of poor welding between layers in a laminated blade, since they trace a more-or-less continuous line along the length of the blade. That's about all I have.

9th June 2006, 07:02 AM	#14
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	That thing is gorgeous! Looks a sound design, too.

9th June 2006, 07:44 AM	#15
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT IS LIKELY WE WILL SEE IT AGAIN AS MY HIGH BID WAS NOT ENOUGH FOR THE SELLER. I HAVE COOLED OFF SOME AND WILL NOT TRY FOR IT AGAIN. I FELT MY OFFER WAS THE TOP AS IT HAS NO SCABBARD,I CAN'T TELL IF ITS JADE OR NOT AND I ALSO FEEL IT WAS PUT TOGETHER FROM PARTS OF OTHER WEAPONS AND I WISH IT HAD A BETTER BLADE. I DO LIKE THE LOOK OF IT THOUGH AND THINK IT WAS NOT PUT TOGETHER RECENTLY.